MICHELE BACHELET - Wednesday, 21st August, 2008
TRANSCRIPT
GEORGE NEGUS: Madam President... Is that the way I should
address you?
MICHELLE BACHELET, CHILEAN PRESIDENT: Oh, yeah, that is
wonderful.
Thank you.
GEORGE NEGUS: Welcome, welcome back to Australia because it is
not your first visit. And in fact you lived here for a short period of
time.
That is most unusual.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, it is. It happens that my brother
came here
looking for better perspectives and possibilities. He was an Australian
citizen. We came to visit him, we were in some difficult conditions. We
lived here, me and my mum, I mean, five months. So I get a lot to know
Sydney at that time. It was a little bit long ago, it's like 22 years
ago but No, 32 years ago, sorry. 32, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: It's a very unusual aspect of a very unusual
life. I
don't really know where to start to talk to you because your life reads
like a political thriller. Could we talk about the dark period in your
country's history where you suffered, your family suffered greatly.
Your father died as a result of torture by the Pinochet regime, as a
military officer he opposed.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Yes, he opposed, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: And then you and your mother were tortured as
well.
MICHELLE BACHELET: We were in jail, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can you ever put that kind of horror of those
Pinochet
years behind you? I know you would like to but can Chile and can you as
President ever put that behind you?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Oh yes, we can. In one way we can. What I
mean is
we're not thinking on that all the time. It suddenly appears, for
example, when you find a cemetery full of people who were supposed to
be 'disappeared' and they're really executed, and you find the bones,
for example.
GEORGE NEGUS: Disapararo, is that the word?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Desparecidos.
GEORGE NEGUS: Desparecidos.
MICHELLE BACHELET: It's detained and disappeared ones, I would
say. And
that sort of thing brings you again the pain. But on the other hand, we
are able to live a normal life because we love life. I mean, all the
people who have been struggling against poverty and for social welfare
is people who loves life and equality of life. I'm not a religious
people so I don't use the word 'forgiveness' in a religious way, but
you know what, I really believe that, and my feeling, my mother
feeling, is to learn from our experiences. We say that only if we do
not forget we won't repeat the mistakes. So, for example, we think we
have to know the truth of what happened to the people, that we must
have justice. I mean, the justice has to work. And I think our society
is looking at the future but understanding that the future, the only
way we will build the future is not forgetting the past.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you believe what has happened to you? I mean,
from an
exile as you were when you were living here, to the President of your
country is quite an amazing journey that you have gone through.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, you know, I never had it as an
objective. I
just wanted to fight for recovering democracy, and later on to
consolidate democracy. And I never thought of myself as a possible
president of the republic. But I think working hard and being very
honest and having a great closeness with the people, the people
suddenly saw me as the best choice in the election, and that's
interesting. But I think people wanted not only to have a wonderful
possibility and economy but also to have also a country who is more,
you know, human, who is more social-protected and more So I think in
some ways they saw me first as a woman..
GEORGE NEGUS: Which some people would say..
MICHELLE BACHELET:..as a mother or something like that. I
don't know if
that is true but some people.
GEORGE NEGUS: A single mother.
MICHELLE BACHELET: A single mother.
GEORGE NEGUS: A woman.
MICHELLE BACHELET: A woman.
GEORGE NEGUS: An agnostic in a Catholic country.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Yes. Well, yes. But also as a woman with my
history
that was able to be a minister of defence. I had no contradiction
because I understood that we will never repeat the mistakes we have
done in the past. So I think people saw me a little bit like a symbol
of reconciliation.
GEORGE NEGUS: A symbol of change.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Something like that.
GEORGE NEGUS: A symbol of a different kind of change.
MICHELLE BACHELET: I think that one important thing that
president
Lagos did in its government I mean, I'm talking symbolically, that he
put women in places where traditionally only men was, I mean symbol of
power.
GEORGE NEGUS: But it is amazingly progressive for what has
been seen
for so long as a conservative country, a conservative Latin-American
nation.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, I think it's still a conservative
country in
some ways. But there is sort of, I would say, a difference between what
people really does and what people says. Because for example, you know,
people who are divorced, they say they're against divorce and things
like that but they are already divorced. And, you know, there are sort
of some moral issues sometimes that are important and religious and
religion has a very important role in our society still.
GEORGE NEGUS: So there is a Chile and a Chile, and you
represent the
other one.
MICHELLE BACHELET: No, I represent both because I can
understand that
we are all Chileans and that the president cannot impose to the people
one way of looking at things. What we have to guarantee is all the
alternatives.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can I ask you about being a Socialist? Do you
feel
sometimes in a world where ideologically the West mainly Western
countries have moved to the right in the last decade or so, do you feel
like the odd person out or an odd person out to be a self-professed
Socialist in a world that would like to think socialism is a thing of
the past?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, the thing is that there are always
discussions
on the parties about this. But Chile is a country who has made some
options, I would say pragmatic options in the sense of saying "This is
the world we live and what we have to do in this world?" And in that
sense I would say I feel a Socialist because I have the same beliefs
and values and principles, and I believe in a world who will give
opportunities and equality to the people. But I think I understand that
the world has changed. And maybe you have the same objectives, the same
goals but you have to change the strategies, or the instruments, how
you grow into those goals. And just an example, Chile since 1990, when
we recovered democracy, we have poverty of 39% of the population, and
20% are extreme poverty. And Chile had had the structural reforms
during the military regime, economic reforms. But we decided that we
have to choose a new way of doing things, to choose to continue growing
that's important.
GEORGE NEGUS: Less idealistic and more pragmatic?
MICHELLE BACHELET: I mean a little bit... I don't know if you
can put
up that way. But I say let's do whatever works and that will be good
for Chile so you can continue growing because if you don't have a
growth, you have nothing to redistribute.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you are accepting the reality of the market
economy,
for instance?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Yeah, we do have a social market economy, a
social
market economy.
GEORGE NEGUS: You call it a social market economy? What is the
difference?
MICHELLE BACHELET: The difference is that we can use some
strategies
that would have at the same time a very high level of social policies
regarding income distribution, regarding improvement of the health
condition, of housing condition, of the detention system and so on. I
would say the main difference is the role of state. We believe the
state must be very strong. We do not believe in a society of consumers.
We believe in a society of citizens. Now the poverty is 13.7% from 39%.
GEORGE NEGUS: How come as we speak there are people on the
streets of
Santiago protesting against your government, And those have been called
the "inequality protests" because you came to power with a promise of
removing inequality in your country.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Yeah, I am working on it.
GEORGE NEGUS: And now your own supporters are up in arms about
it.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, it's not exactly my own supporters.
Really it
was more a mobilisation against labour conditions, really.
GEORGE NEGUS: Why are people are upset? Why are they on the
streets?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Because they want everything yesterday. I
mean, I
didn't do any promises that I won't be able to fulfil because I'm not
populistic.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you're asking be patient, basically?
MICHELLE BACHELET: A little bit, yes. We have only 1.5 years
of
government and they want everything. And I understand that because they
said that they were mobilising, so I understand.
GEORGE NEGUS: You are 20% less popular than you were when you
were
elected, is that part of the frustration and the lack of patience?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Of course.
GEORGE NEGUS: Maybe people expected you to be a miracle
worker, and
that's always a fairly fraught with danger situation, isn't it?
MICHELLE BACHELET: But I think it is many other things. You
know, we
were talking about a symbolic change but also cultural change. And
women... I mean, I don't want to do a man-style of doing things, I do a
female-style of doing things.
GEORGE NEGUS: Don't send a woman to do a man's job, send a
woman to do
a woman's job.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Yeah. Yeah. Because it is a woman's job
too. And the
thing is that sometimes people, because women speak softer, and I am a
patient kind of woman, I am not hysterical and so on, so I'm not
screaming to everybody, people view it sometimes as weakness, and not
at all. I have another kind of leadership, you know. And I think this
is important too when people say "What about this new President?" There
are so many cultural changes that are going on in our country, but
positive, all positive ones. But there has been a resilience, you know
resistance, I would say - better. Some resistance to this new way of
doing things.
GEORGE NEGUS: We're talking to you in Australia. Have you met
John
Howard, the Australian Prime Minister?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Oh, yes. Well, I met him last APEC, in
Vietnam.
GEORGE NEGUS: And how was that? I mean, he would probably
regard you as
a dangerous left-winger.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, it was a normal relation between head
of
state.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you speak the same language, as it were,
politically?
Because he's definitely not a dangerous left-winger.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, as always in these bilateral meetings
everybody says what their position is, and it's a very respectful
meeting. It was a nice meeting.
GEORGE NEGUS: George Bush, you have met?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Oh, yes, I met him.
GEORGE NEGUS: And how was that? Was that... 'Cordial' is
usually what
politicians say.
MICHELLE BACHELET: It is cordial of course. And we had a very,
I would
say, frank discussion.
GEORGE NEGUS: Full and frank?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Frank, I'm always very frank and honest
with all my
colleagues, I would say. It was all normal.
GEORGE NEGUS: Are the political differences obvious when you
talk with
men like John Howard and George Bush? Is it obvious that you see the
world differently?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, it depends. Of course if we talk
about FTAs
and things like that, we might have a similar approach. And if we talk,
for example, about other issues - Iraq or so on - we have a different
opinion. So it depends.
GEORGE NEGUS: What is your position on Iraq?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well, Chile's position was in the past when
we were
in the Security Council, against the invasion of Iraq. And we think we
were right.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can we finish on this note, 'Forbes' magazine
described
you as the number 17 on the 100 most powerful women in the world. How
does that grab you, being regarded as an incredibly powerful person?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Well...the thing is clear because they
choose women
who were prime ministers or presidents or CEOS of big, big, big
enterprises. And I think that, of course, to be a woman and to be in an
important and relevant positions, unfortunately, it is still not the
most frequent issue in our world. So still a novelty, a new thing, you
know, to have women in powerful positions.
GEORGE NEGUS: So it would be better for you if women were
included in
the most powerful people in the world rather than the most powerful
women in the world?
MICHELLE BACHELET: Yeah, yeah. But I can imagine that would
bring us to
a very low position, all of the women.
GEORGE NEGUS: In your case, I doubt that. Thank you very much
for
talking to us.
MICHELLE BACHELET: Thank you, George.
GEORGE NEGUS: Lovely meeting you.