AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN, SPECIAL ENVOY TO DARFUR - Wednesday, 6th August, 2008
TRANSCRIPT
Just two days to go and with the debate raging over China and media
freedom - including, on last week's program, Dateline’s own
brush with the mysterious "five forbidden topics" - the Olympics
themselves already have been almost run over by the politics of the
Olympics. Before the story exploded around the world that China was
blocking Internet access to so-called politically sensitive sites,
Dateline lined up an interview with a very senior Chinese Government
spokesman. Officially, Ambassador Liu Guijin is the government's
African envoy. But with the press freedom story running hot and with
government spokesmen thin on the ground, George Negus raised the issue
with him at the Foreign Office here in Beijing.
GEORGE NEGUS: Ambassador, thank you very much for your time. I
know we
are going to talk about Africa, Darfur and Sudan but I can't have a
top-ranking foreign official like yourself sitting with me and not say
to you that the rest of the world is concerned about media freedom
during the Olympic Games.
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN, SPECIAL ENVOY TO DARFUR: Well, me,
myself was
not concerned that it was that because we have been used to that kind
of criticism, actually.
GEORGE NEGUS: But do you think that at the moment you're
making it easy
for people to criticise China?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think we have fulfilled our
commitment to the
International Olympic Committee. I think to make sure that the media
people have freedom to cover, freedom to talk, freedom to interview
people.
GEORGE NEGUS: People are concerned now that there are
restrictions on
Internet access. There are certain topics, certain political issues
that we've been told are so sensitive the government does not want us
to cover them. I mean, this sounds like an attempt to censor the
international media and stop us from doing our job.
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I don't personally think so. As our
spokesman
indicated to the reporters, we need to check with the information
centre in the Olympic Games place there to see whether there are some
kind of technical problems or things like that.
GEORGE NEGUS: But if I was to try and access the Falun Gong's
website
or Amnesty International...
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think Falun Gong maybe is a
difference. It's a
special case because Falun Gong is a illegal... ..is a illegal
organisation here in China.
GEORGE NEGUS: What about Amnesty International and other human
rights
organisations?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: So that might, you know, involved with
some
consideration, so some technical problems which for me myself is very
hard to explain.
GEORGE NEGUS: Not censorship?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: Well, as I told you, I am not in a
position to
make more comments about that because we have proper people and proper
organisations who are dealing with that.
GEORGE NEGUS: I understand. One thing that I would like to
suggest to
you is that, because of this issue, is China to be trusted? Is China
telling us the truth?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think they have a very good reason to
trust
China and China keeps on telling truth and we continue to do that. And
I think some of the media people if they wish to know things in detail,
if they really feel we are not acting properly, I think you can reach
the issue. You can talk to people who are responsible for the issue.
But definitely it's not me.
GEORGE NEGUS: You were so well-travelled and experienced I
thought you
would definitely have a view. The International Olympic Committee are
themselves concerned about this.
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think so, I think so.
GEORGE NEGUS: They said they are disappointed, that they think
that
China was granted the Games because they were committed to opening up
the country to scrutiny - Jacques Rogge's, the IOC President's, own
words. And now we feel we can't necessarily scrutinise your country in
certain areas.
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: Yes, I think we are serious and we have
committed. That is the habit of the Chinese Government, Chinese people
- whatever we commit, we will try to fulfil that.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it possible that we don't understand the
Chinese
definition of freedom - let alone freedom of the press?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: Well, that's just a big question. That
will take
me more than half an hour to discuss that, so I don't think today is
the proper time. But we do have different interpretations of freedom
but at the same time the Chinese Government and Chinese people have
recognised the universalities of the freedom. At the same time,
considering our background as a developing country, of course we have
our own priorities. We have our own historical background so that
different historical cultural background sometimes makes people have
different interpretations, that historically there are different
perceptions on the same thing. That is something quiet normal. But
today definitely not the proper time to discuss freedom.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yes, I understand. Talking about freedom, are we
free to
talk about Darfur and Sudan? That is your area of expertise. Is that
OK? That is not one of the forbidden areas?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: No, no you can talk about whatever
issues with
regards to Darfur.
GEORGE NEGUS: Why do you think it is that the world seems to
be divided
about China's role in Sudan on the issue of Darfur and the genocide
there? I mean, I would hate to link it to the Olympic Games, as some
people have called these Games the Genocide Games because of what's
happening in Darfur and China's role in it.
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: So when you say that the world is
divided, you
mainly refer to the Western parts of the world. So, different places
where I go, I hear different opinions, different comments, different,
you know, ideas about what's happening there in Darfur. So the
developing countries, particularly, most of the Arabic countries and
African countries do not think that China should be blamed about what
is happening there in Darfur. But in Western countries we have heard
some of the criticism, some of the allegations against the China from
NGOs, particularly NGOs who are based in Washington like Save Darfur
Coalition... But I think the problem is that there are diversified
opinions, there are different positions of different interest,
different people, different organisations, so the reasons are very
complicated.
GEORGE NEGUS: Let me put a scenario to you - it is difficult
to
summarise in Sudan - that's certainly the case. But is it true, because
of the amount of oil that China buys from the Sudanese Government, and
the fact that China is involved in producing oil and petroleum in Sudan
themselves - does that then contribute to arms sales from China which
contribute to the conflict and the genocide and the killing in Darfur -
and therefore China's contribution is negative and is causing a lot of
strife, a lot of trouble, a lot of death?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I don't think so and I can't agree with
the
rationale of that. We do recognise that we do have some oil interests
there in Sudan.
GEORGE NEGUS: 75%-80% of their oil is your oil. Yeah.
Ambassador, is
China the biggest purchaser of Sudanese oil?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think so personally, I think so,
China. But
how can you, you know, link them with the so-called genocide or
humanitarian crisis or war or bloody conflicts in the region with the
purchase of oil?
GEORGE NEGUS: But am I wrong in presuming that the money the
Sudanese
Government gets from China by your purchase of oil is then used in turn
to buy arms, which contributes to the conflict that has left hundreds
of thousands dead?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: You know, the Government of Sudan
actually has
claimed by itself that it is number three biggest conventional arms or
ammunitions producer there in Africa, immediately after Egypt and South
Africa, so they can produce themselves.
GEORGE NEGUS: But you do sell arms?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: We do, we do, but from China we are a
responsible government. We have never violated the United Nations
Security Council's resolution on arms embargos on Darfur.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could I ask you this question - do you believe
that the
President of Sudan has contributed to the genocide and the suffering
and the deaths?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: Well, I do not like to use the term
genocide
because I know not every country, even many of the major Western
countries, governments do not use the term genocide.
GEORGE NEGUS: What term would you use?
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think there are real humanitarian
crisis, the
Government of Sudan is part of the problem, should be responsible for
what is happening in Darfur because they have not handled the issue
properly, but I don’t know whether it constitutes the full
reason for present..
GEORGE NEGUS: So you are saying that we are wrong if we see
China
acting out of self interest.
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think that is very normal,
justifiable and
open for mutual benefit kind of interest for both China, the government
of Sudan and the people of Sudan. Just try to remove the government
cannot solve the problem. So that is that China is advocating for a
kind of holistic approach to solve the problem.
GEORGE NEGUS: The most cynical in the West would say "Why
should we
believe you. Can we trust China?"
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think, I think for the Western world,
I think
they need to more or less change, fix the mentality. I think they need
to regard China as an equal partner.
GEORGE NEGUS: I guess the post-Olympic slogan is "more
openness".
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: I think we are doing that. This year
happens to
be 30 years of China opens its door to the outside world. Yes, so we
have achieved a lot and we cannot be satisfied over that because to
close the door does not fall in the interests of China and the Chinese
people.
GEORGE NEGUS: Thank you. Good to talk to you.
AMBASSADOR LUI GUIJIN: Thank you.
GEORGE NEGUS: You have to admit, whether they're arguing their
case for
why it's OK to gag the media or genocide in Darfur, they spin a pretty
good line. If you asked me, they'd have to be a pretty good chance for
at least a bronze medal for hair-splitting.