WESLEY CLARK INTERVIEW - Wednesday, 2nd July, 2008
TRANSCRIPT
"I don't think getting into a fighter plane and getting shot down makes
him more qualified to be president." With that loaded comment this
week, General Wesley Clark, the former NATO Supreme Commander and
one-time Presidential candidate, launched into Republican hopeful John
McCain and created a storm. Not surprisingly, the McCain camp were
incensed over the comments. In case you hadn't noticed, the campaign
for the White House is currently obsessed with the issue of American
patriotism and Clark - who just happens to be a Democrat supporter -
and under consideration as a running mate for Barack Obama, isn't
exactly afraid to speak his mind. On a recent Dateline trip to Europe,
George Negus caught up with the outspoken General and talked about John
McCain, Obama, the Iraq war and more.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could we talk about the possible scenarios
happening in
the US. There's one guy who says he thinks the Iraq War - John McCain -
would last for 100 years and he'll follow Osama bin Laden to the gates
of hell. And Barack Obama says he would like to end the war. Which one
of those scenarios scares you the most?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, FORMER SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, NATO:
This is
kind of hard to articulate, but in broad outline, the United States is
going to do what the United States has to do.
GEORGE NEGUS: Which is?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We've got to find a way to disengage
ourselves
militarily somewhat from the region. If we stay with John McCain he'll
try to paint it as, "we're still engaged." If we have a Democrat in
office they'll paint it as, "we're disengaging". But the point is we
have very important interests in this region. We need a new strategic
architecture in the region, we need a way of talking to adversaries, we
need a way to convince people not to use force to resolve disputes or
intervene in the affairs of neighbouring governments. That's asking a
lot when the world's greatest power is basically doing that. If it's a
single-minded, exclusive focus on Iraq, and how many troops are in Iraq
and how many incidents occurred this week, we're not going to take care
of the responsibilities to the American people, we're not going to take
care of America's responsibilities to help with problems beyond our
borders.
GEORGE NEGUS: I hate to say this to you, but you're sounding
like
you're running yourself. That was a very political comment you just
made.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was a straight answer in the sense
that -
getting out of Iraq is going to be very difficult.
GEORGE NEGUS: Would you put a timetable on it?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, absolutely not. But I do believe you
have to
start the withdrawal process because I think that's the engine for
getting other things to happen in the region. I think without starting
that withdrawal process you can't then do the diplomacy you need,
create the strategic architecture you need, work the politics on the
ground in Iraq, change the focus from excessive reliance on military
power to a reliance on a broader basket of influencing agents and
power. So there's a lot of work to be done to shift this around and
each passing year has made it more difficult. The idea that you could
stay there forever and be welcomed with 100,000 troops or 50,000 troops
as a constant agent of influence in the region is highly problematic to
me. I know that John McCain has said it, and he has said, "I don't mean
we'll be at war for 100 years in Iraq - it would be like Korea or
Germany". But it isn't like Korea or Germany. It's a different kind of
competitor. So the quick and easy analogies that John McCain is using
don't quite apply.
GEORGE NEGUS: Will you regard, like a lot of people do,
whether its
politically or militarily that you're speaking, as the invasion of
Iraq, one of the craziest, most destructive foreign policy decisions
the United States has ever made?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I've said it was a strategic blunder and
it was a
world-class strategic blunder. Very, very serious. I think this
administration has taken far too long to see the big picture in the
region. I don't think you can solve what's going on in Iraq unless you
can deal effectively with the region and you can't deal effectively
with the region if you start with the premise that you can't talk to
people who disagree with you.
GEORGE NEGUS: Were you startled, like some of us were, when
Hillary
Clinton actually used the word 'obliterate' when she was talking about
the situation in Iran? Was that a wrong term, was that a politically,
diplomatically, smart term to use for a prospective president?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, she used that term, but that was on
the
assumption that should deterrence fail and should this new architecture
not be there. And I think you have to start with a firm determination
that the United States will stand by its friends in the region.
GEORGE NEGUS: 'Obliterate' is hardly soft diplomacy is it? She
might
have chosen a better word than that, to say she'd 'obliterate' them?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well you know I think you have to look
at the
context of what this is all about. But you know I've seen the Iranian
statements, I've looked at the Iranians, I've listened to some of the
Iranian leadership and they're feeling their oats. They feel like
they're the real winners of this. Their view is they've blocked the
United States' further effort to impose its style of democracy, they've
shown that...
GEORGE NEGUS: Taken on the great Satan?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's right - and they've shown that
they've got
influence on the ground despite the presence of - underneath the
presence of - over 100,000 American troops. And they feel like, as I
heard one Iranian diplomat say to a conference 1.5 years ago, "We're
not going to talk to you until you leave," you know. "We don't have to
talk to you - you're the great Satan. When you leave, we'll talk to
you." It was a very arrogant statement and there are a lot of threats
in the region. There should be no misunderstanding the United States is
a very strong and determined country. The people of the United States
stand by and respect their obligations and so if you're going to expect
the United States to execute a redeployment of forces in the region,
don't misunderstand that as weakness. It is not weakness.
GEORGE NEGUS: You've made an interesting statement - you said,
"We're
fighting wars on two fronts. Our credibility and leadership in the
world have been eroded, our alliances frayed, our armed forces under
strain." Is it possible for America to get out of the situation they've
got themselves in, this quagmire in Iraq, and save face, to use a crude
term the media uses all the time.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Certainly.
GEORGE NEGUS: How do they do that?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You have to have a positive strategy.
GEORGE NEGUS: Has their moral authority in the world been
eroded so
badly that they'll never get it back?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I don't think so but I think you have to
repudiate torture and I think you have to end what's going on at
Guantanamo and you have to live up to American values. Basically you
restore - what the American dream brought to the world stage was
respect for the individual and the idea that people aren't pawns that
rulers can push around but they have rights. Once you take yourself off
the pedestal, saying, "It's bad for you to torture, but for us, this is
our national security, so we're gonna do it". You can't live that way
and the United States doesn't need to do it, it shouldn't do it, and I
think a Democratic administration, whoever the democratic president is,
will repudiate that kind of conduct. I think it was an overreaction
caused by a lot of different strains of thought in the administration.
I think it was clearly wrong and I think that repudiation, which will
come from the United States, will be a key in restoring America's
legitimacy.
GEORGE NEGUS: I hate to repeat myself but you do sound like
the
politician you have when you're not having a politician.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I ran, I ran! Well, I ran for office and
I did it
because I believed in the United States and a lot of people gave me an
opportunity to have a voice. I had an unusual career for a military
guy.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you accept the term like 'military dove' or
is that a
contradiction in terms? A military dove.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: A military dove? Well, I don't know what
that
means.
GEORGE NEGUS: It doesn't feel like I'm talking to a military
man when
I'm talking to a man with your amazing military record.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you're not talking to a military
man -
you're talking to a retired military man who's in the business
community. I've done broadcasting, I've done a lot of different things,
so you know if you want go out and inspect the troops and test rifle
marksmanship and PT and how to attack a hill, I can do all that. But
the thing about it is when you're in the military you know you're only
one part of the solution. The first thing any of the generals or
admirals would say is, "Have you tried everything else first? Don't
come to us until you've tried everything else first". Because when you
use force, people get hurt, and when you kill people, their relatives
don't like it. And usually war has some unanticipated consequences so
it's something you shouldn't launch into, on the expectation that this
is going to rally the nation. This is not like 'Friday Night Lights'.
GEORGE NEGUS: Sounds to me like you're saying hairy-chested
sabre
rattling is not the way to go.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I mean you're speaking to me with a sort
of a
British accent. I'm trying to think who are these hairy-chested
sabre-rattlers? It must have something to do with a different culture.
I don't see that in the American military. I've never seen that in the
American military.
GEORGE NEGUS: Well, maybe the American lingo would be -
there's no
place for a Rambo mentality in the world at the moment.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well we always need brave, capable young
men and
women who can run a tactical operation and take risks on the
battlefield but you should know when we need you to go in there, that
if there's any other way to do it, that we could do this without
risking your life, we wouldn't ask you to risk your life.
GEORGE NEGUS: I've got it, I've got the job - secretary of
defence -
how does that sound?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's illegal.
GEORGE NEGUS: For you, is it really? So you couldn't be.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, no, there's a law.
GEORGE NEGUS: I think a lot of people would think that's a
shame as
well.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I think it's important. One of the
principles
in the United States is civilian control of the military.
GEORGE NEGUS: So even a retired general could not be secretary
of
defense.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Not for 10 years.
GEORGE NEGUS: But you should be able to get into their ear at
least.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, we'll see.
GEORGE NEGUS: Nice talking to you. Thank you.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.