THOMAS MAPFUMO INTERVIEW - Wednesday 16th April, 2008
You may not be too familiar with our next guest, but Thomas
Mapfumo is a musician of extraordinary fame in his homeland, Zimbabwe.
But his defiant protest songs against Robert Mugabe landed him in jail
and eventually he was forced to seek refuge in the US. Thomas is in
Australia at the moment and George Negus spoke to him here in the
studio a short while ago.
GEORGE NEGUS: Thomas, as we speak, your country, Zimbabwe, is on a
precipice and the opposition are saying that they actually fear
genocide in the current situation. What do you think will happen? What
is your worst fear or best hope for Zimbabwe?
THOMAS MAPFUNO, ZIMBABWEAN MUSICIAN: Zimbabwe is actually
going to be
in a very, very bad situation. The way, I mean, that it is today. I
think the world is listening and also the world is seeing.
GEORGE NEGUS: The world is listening, Thomas, but we don't
seem to be
doing much to help.
THOMAS MAPFUNO: That's very true and we - actually we were
surprised, I
mean, the whole world is so silent to what is happening in Zimbabwe
today.
GEORGE NEGUS: You have actually written, "We must rise up and
fight
back." Is that a call to arms by the people of Zimbabwe? I mean, you
don't live there, you are in self-exile yourself, but if you were
there, living there, would you rise up against him? You think armed
force is the only way to get rid of Mugabe?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: You know, people are trying to avoid, I mean,
getting
back to war. They're trying to work out this situation and our people
are tired. And when people get tired they will say, "Enough is enough.
If you want to kill us all, you can kill us all."
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think it is that's?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: That is where Zimbabwe, I mean, is headed for
now.
GEORGE NEGUS: Civil war?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, confrontation with the people.
GEORGE NEGUS: That's if the situation doesn't work out.
THOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because a lot of
people are
very angry. A lot of people are leaving outside Zimbabwe.
GEORGE NEGUS: Like yourself?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, like myself.
GEORGE NEGUS: Thomas, if you went back to Zimbabwe now
yourself, what
would happen? Because you have been harassed and been dealt with by
thugs before - you are so unpopular among the Mugabe people - what
would happen if you went back?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: It is unpredictable, you won't know what would
happen.
I have very good friends who are in the army and also friends within
the police force. When I say friends, people who love my music and who
actually love the messages within my music. When I - if I went back to
Zimbabwe, I am not afraid of the police or the soldiers. I am afraid of
those elements which are being used by the regime today. People who
have nothing, I mean, who don't care whether they are paid $50 to kill
someone, they could just do it for.
GEORGE NEGUS: That ruthless?
HOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: And that desperate?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: They are desperate.
GEORGE NEGUS: Any chance - any chance in the foreseeable
future of your
country becoming normalised, people living normal lives?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: I mean it depends with the leaders of Africa.
When they
look at this situation and they assess the situation in Zimbabwe, they
themselves, I mean, as the leaders of Africa, what are they doing about
the situation in Zimbabwe?
GEORGE NEGUS: Why are they so inactive, Thomas? Why are they
so
inactive? Why aren't they applying more pressure on Mugabe?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: You understand what I think he's the some of
them are
very much afraid of Mugabe. They think if they go against him he is
going to say to them, "You are puppets of the West." So we cannot just,
I mean, stand by, I mean, look at this situation, someone is killing
his own people, he is abusing his own people, he is actually, I mean,
oppressing his own people. And we just look at it like, I mean, "The
situation in that country is good." It is a shame on Thabo Mbeki to say
there is no crisis in Zimbabwe. I mean, he must be shameful.
GEORGE NEGUS: Well, if that is not a crisis, what is?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: What sort of crisis is he talking about? There
is a
crisis in Zimbabwe.
GEORGE NEGUS: In two weeks' time, if we were talking about
this, do you
think it would be over or will it get worse before it gets better?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: Well, I mean, the way it is now, it is getting
worse.
Because we are hearing, I mean, a lot of bad news, some people being
harassed, some people being tortured, some people being accused of
rigging the election. When he used to win, we never heard of such
things. Just because he lost in these elections and he thinks he should
be there for ever and ever, he is being pressurised by those corrupt
ones who are surrounding him, because they know if he goes... They go.
They are going to be in a lot of trouble. The next government will come
after them.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it possible to say that the way things are
looking at
the moment, if the situation - the stalemate is not broken soon, that
Zimbabwe could be lost? It could just become a non-country, like we
would all have to start over again?
THOMAS MAPFUNO: Right, now we are - Zimbabwe is a lost
country. There
is no money in Zimbabwe, everything stands still. The economy of the
country is in shambles, the inflation is the highest in this world. So
right now Zimbabwe does not exist.
GEORGE NEGUS: Thomas, thanks for talking to us.
THOMAS MAPFUNO: Thank you.
GEORGE NEGUS: I hope that the next time we talk things are a
lot better
in your
THOMAS MAPFUNO: Thank you very much.