SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE INTERVIEW - Wednesday 3rd May, 2006
THE GETUP AD:
CHILD: One, two, three, four.
VOICEOVER: Five years, five months and 20 days - the time an innocent
child has spent in detention. Australians said, "This is wrong!"
Together we decided no child fleeing persecution would be locked up. As
you watch this, our Government has promised Indonesia it will change
that law. Log on to: getup.org.au and tell our Government no child
belongs in detention.
Authorised B Solomon, GetUp, Sydney.
GEORGE NEGUS: Senator, I presume that the GetUp commercial has been
brought your attention which talks about the proposed changes to the
Government's refugee policy. What do you think of it?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE, MINISTER OF IMMIGRATION: Not much
actually,
but I am always grateful to live in a free country where everyone can
express their views and in whatever fashion may choose, so fair enough.
GEORGE NEGUS: As I understand it we spoke to the GetUp people
and
they've had 10,000 hits already on their website so they reckon that
their campaign against what you are proposing is going pretty well.
10,000 is not to be sniffed at.
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: No, that's right. One person's view
is not to
be sniffed at. Everybody is entitled to have their view and people are
entitled to have a different view from the view the Government has
arrived at and they're entitled to express their view. I'm quite
relaxed about that. That's the sort of country we live in.
GEORGE NEGUS: That is true. What they seem to be upset about
is they
thought there was last July an agreement that no children in particular
will be placed in detention under your policies, now they say that this
is reneging on the deal.
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Those arrangements related to
Australian
detention which includes of course Christmas Island and we live up to
that. Those arrangements also indicated that we could make these sort
of changes because the boats have stopped coming and that if there were
a further influx, we may have to look at it, so as I say…
GEORGE NEGUS: These are the 42 refugees from West Papua that
fall into
that category, as a reason for considering. -
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: No I don’t say it in that
context, I
simply say that at the time I think was clear that it related to
Australian detention facilities. We can't make rules in relation to
facilities and other countries. We can influence them but we can't make
rules. We changed the rules in Australia.
GEORGE NEGUS: What are you saying here? I think that earlier
in the
day, you said that this means that Christmas Island is somewhere where
you could not send children but Nauru is somewhere where you could. In
other words we can lock up children, if you like, in detention centres
on Nauru but not in Christmas Island or Western Australia, what are you
saying?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Well I am saying that in Australian
territory
the arrangements we made last year apply and that of course includes
Christmas Island. It is a part of Australia’s territory, but
Nauru is another country.
GEORGE NEGUS: In moral terms, let's take the politics out of
it, even
the legality out of it. Isn't that a breathtaking display ever
hair-splitting? Why is it okay to put children in detention in Nauru
but not in Christmas Island?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Well we would prefer that there were
no people
in detention, that would clearly be my preference, but it is another
country. I do not think that is spitting hairs, Australia is one
country and Nauru is another, there is a fundamental difference.
GEORGE NEGUS: This is the Pacific solution plus one.
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: You can describe it that way but can
I put
this proposition to you, we hope that we don't have to re-use Nauru.
That’s what I very much hope and I think people who are
considering the situation of women and children are quite entitled to
do that - we of course want to have the best arrangements we can worked
out with Nauru on Nauru if another boat arrives. But the whole purpose
of this change is to ensure that Australia is not plagued with people
arriving unlawfully and at the same time that if people do arrive
unlawfully and they have an asylum claim that it is properly heard
according to the rules.
GEORGE NEGUS: Offshore - not on Australian territory?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: People do not have a right to say
where their
claim will be heard. They have a right for their claim to be heard and
they have a right if their claim is in the yes to protection, and we
will live up to that.
GEORGE NEGUS: And are you absolutely sure that the UNHCR would
agree
with you that the spirit of the whole refugee agreement throughout the
world is that if people come to Australia seeking political asylum,
they expect their case to be heard in Australia not Nauru.
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Oh people want and expect things to
be heard
in Australia, I have no doubt about that. I have equally no doubt that
the UNHCR is not in favour of our policy of off shore processing. They
do not however put the proposition forward that we do not have people
properly processed on Nauru.
In fact he outcome rates on Nauru for people processed by Australian
officials and by the UNHCR case load, were roughly the same and those
outcome rates for extremely high - in other words, on Nauru when we do
the processing, it is of a very very fair application of the UNHCR
guidelines.
GEORGE NEGUS: Let’s say that next week we get
another 40
unauthorised people arriving, what happens?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Well if people come without a visa,
by boat,
they could expect to be processed in Nauru if they had an asylum card.
GEORGE NEGUS: In Nauru, immediately?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: As quickly as possible, yes. We would
want the
process to be dealt with as quickly as possible so that anyone that was
entitled to protection and therefore got a yes on their protection visa
claim, could be as quickly as possible found protection.
GEORGE NEGUS: What if they came here with the same claim as
the people
that you did grant those protection visas to, the 42. People who
claimed they were fearful of persecution in West Papua at hands of the
Indonesian military. You’ve suggested that these people are
using Australia as a, I forget the term that you used..a point where
they can actually make their protest?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: I will make a couple of points in
response to
that. First of all, each claim is dealt with individually. The decision
on the 42 were not made on a blanket claim at all.
GEORGE NEGUS: What basis were they made?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Individual claims by a individual
people based
on individual circumstances. Simply because someone makes a protest you
can't say “that’s a stunt, they are just
protesters”. They may well have a valid visa claim, as was
the case with these 42 people. But equally because you decide that
their visa claim is valid does not mean that you agree that everything
they have said publicly is true.
GEORGE NEGUS: My understanding is that they all claimed, they
feared
persecution in the form of obituary arrest and detention, imprisonment,
physical assault, torture or possible execution at the hands of
Indonesian authorities in West Papua, what other reason would they come
here for? That’s why they came here.
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Well I am not going to go into each
of the
individual claims partly because I haven't gone through each claim but
also because the point that I have made to you is, I think the proper
way to describe the manner in which these claims are decided.
GEORGE NEGUS: What if one of those 42 said that they wanted
asylum here
because they feared persecution, even death at their hands of
Indonesian authorities in West Papua, isn't that Australia giving tacit
agreement to their reason and therefore acknowledging what is going on
there.
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Anyone who makes an asylum claim that
is a
valid claim and if it is decided in the yes, will get protection.
GEORGE NEGUS: But you see my point? If you signed off on their
application for a protection visa, on the grounds that they claimed,
that they feared persecution at hands of Indonesian military in West
Papua, you are saying, “that must be going on.”
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: You are trying to take an individual
case and
say therefore it must be happening across the board and that anyone
that comes here is likely to have a successful claim, now that
isn’t true.
GEORGE NEGUS: Senator can I ask you this, do you, as a
politician of
the Australian Parliament, do you believe that there are people in West
Papua who are being persecuted but Indonesian military on political
grounds and that is why some of them are wanting to come to this
country?
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Well as I said the Indonesian
government
acknowledges that through their own human rights body that is in West
Papua, that there are circumstances that caused concern but I am very
keen for your listeners to understand that the acceptance of an
individual claim or the acceptance that things can happen but shouldn't
is not a judgment that they happen across the board in a state or
territory or government at large. It comes back on each occasion to the
individual claim. That is what is important. Each case is treated
individually on its merits.
GEORGE NEGUS: Senator, thank you very much for talking to us.
SENATOR AMANDA VANSTONE: Pleasure.