EFRAIM HALEVY INTERVIEW - Wednesday, 12 July, 2006
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Halevy, thanks very much for your time. We
have just
seen a report here from one of our correspondents where a Palestinian
spokesman says that what is going on in Gaza at the moment at the hands
of the Israeli Defense Forces will do nothing other than to force
people who weren't already there into the arms of Hamas. Doesn't this
make the situation worse from not just their point of view, but yours
as well, Israel?
EFRAIM HALEVY, HEBREW UNIVERSITY: I don't believe this is
true. As you
well know, there were elections in the territories a few months ago,
especially in Gaza where the Hamas has always been very strong. The
Hamas was voted in with a vast majority in the Gaza Strip. And I don't
think that the present activity of the IDF is going to influence this
aspect of the situation one way or the other.
GEORGE NEGUS: We spoke also to a farmer who said that he has
never
supported Hamas, he has never done anything militant himself, he would
now encourage his son to become a suicide bomber, in fact, if he could,
he would become one himself.
EFRAIM HALEVY: Well, I cannot assess what an individual in
Gaza is
going to say. I'm not sure he is representative of all the Gazans. All
I can say is that there has been a very, very strong following of Hamas
in the Gaza Strip, and I don't think it makes all that much difference
whether the IDF moved in or not. As you know, the IDF moved in because
of a situation that arose as a result of a Hamas attack, which resulted
in a soldier being kidnapped, abducted. And I think we should see
things in their proper light and in proper proportion.
GEORGE NEGUS: On that score, people are now beginning to
question
whether or not this really has anything to do with rescuing Corporal
Shalit, and in fact, it's part of a plan, a master plan that has been
in Israeli military minds for quite some time, long before this.
EFRAIM HALEVY: I don't think this is true. I think that if we
had a
master plan some time in our drawers, it didn't need such an incident
to bring it out. And that, therefore, Israel has taken action in order
to do two things - A, to secure the release of Corporate Shalit, and B,
to stop the daily attacks of Hamas forces, which have been raining
rockets on Israeli cities in the perimeter.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Halevy, how many Israelis have been killed by
these
Palestinian rocket attacks?
EFRAIM HALEVY: I don't think one should ask how many Israelis
have been
killed. The question is how many Israelis could have been killed. And
the best way to resolve the problem is, the best way to resolve the
problem, sir, is that those who began attacking Israel would desist
from doing so as of now.
GEORGE NEGUS: There is, at the moment, one Israeli captive of
the
Palestinians. How many Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons
as a result of their activities? As we understand it, something like
8,000 - 800 without any sort of charge being laid against them. Which
is why magazines as reputable as 'The Economist' are saying that the
Israeli action is an overreaction, that the way you are behaving in
this situation is disproportionate to the situation.
EFRAIM HALEVY: I don't accept this argumentation at all. And I
think is
very cynical to put it that way. One has to recognise that the current
situation is a result of the fact that the Palestinians have decided,
of their own volition, to continue attacking Israel daily along its
borders, along the international borders of Israel. And that is the
issue at the moment. The moment the Palestinians stop attacking Israel
and behave as a responsible government inside the Palestinian
territories, these current problems could be resolved.
GEORGE NEGUS: You say it is cynical suggestion, but there are
many
commentators in the world at the moment, with an interest in peace in
the Middle East, who are suggesting that this is all about wiping out
Hamas as a government - for instance, the arrest of so many members of
the Hamas Government is an indication of Israel's attitude. Why
shouldn't we, without being cynical, believe that there is more to this
than Corporal Shalit's rescue?
EFRAIM HALEVY: Because Israel did not take such action until
Corporal
Shalit was kidnapped, because the Hamas Government was in power and
Israel said that it would deal with the Hamas Government if it met
three conditions. The three conditions being that they should recognise
Israel, that they should respect all the agreements which were
previously made by previous Palestinian administrations, and that they
should prevent any acts of violence from their territory into Israel.
This is the way every responsible government throughout the world has
to behave. This is the way the Hamas Government has to behave. They
didn't behave that way. And instead of that, they condoned terror, they
encouraged terror. Once they did this, they were no longer a government
in the normal sense of the term, but they were part of a terrorist
effort to destabilise Israel, and this, of course, we could not allow
to happen.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Halevy, do you accept the fact - again of
reliable and
responsible commentators - that what has been going on in Gaza in
recent days, including the bombing of the power plant and collective
punishment of the Palestinian people, amounts under Geneva Conventions
to a war crime?
EFRAIM HALEVY: I think this is a spurious suggestion. It is
not a war
crime. Israel is in a state of war. The war was initiated by the other
side. It could stop immediately, even at this moment. If we speak about
war crimes, Corporal Shalit is being held under conditions which have
no relation at all to the Geneva Convention.
According to the Geneva Convention, the Red Cross should be allowed
access to prisoners of war. Prisoners of war have certain rights and
their whereabouts should be made known. If you wish to resort to
international law and rules of law, then the rules of law concerning
war apply to both sides.
GEORGE NEGUS: Would it upset you if the end result of all of
this, no
matter how long it takes, is that Hamas is wiped out as a government of
the occupied territories?
EFRAIM HALEVY: I not would be upset or not upset. I don't
think this is
an issue of what my personal feelings are on this at all. I think that
this is not the purpose of this operation, as I said. And what would
encourage me would be if the Palestinians would come to their senses
and would begin to behave as responsible partner in negotiation.
GEORGE NEGUS: And you don't accept any suggestion from other
sources
that the Israeli action has been an overreaction, and the behaviour of
the Israeli Defense Forces is disproportionate to the crime, as it
were?
EFRAIM HALEVY: No, I don't accept this at all. And I regret
the way you
have been putting these questions to me because I would have liked you
to be a little more, also, even-handed in the way you have addressed
your questions to me. But I'm not complaining, I'm simply saying that
in a situation such as this, I think we have to see the way things are
and to accept them as they are on the ground.
GEORGE NEGUS: I understand what you are saying, sir, but I
guess I
could also say that somebody with your background is hardly coming at
this situation with an open mind. You are partial.
EFRAIM HALEVY: I am not coming to this situation with an open
mind. I'm
coming to this situation with an effort in which I have been engaged
for many, many years to bring about a reduction of violence between
Israel and its neighbours. I have been involved in activities which
have brought about peace agreements between Israel and some of its
neighbours, and I'm very proud of this association of mine. And I would
have liked, also, that this would have happened now. And I would have
liked, also, that when interviews of this type are conducted that they
would be conducted also by interviewers who also have a semblance of an
open mind. It would have been better for both of us to conduct the
interview in such circumstances.
GEORGE NEGUS: Well, you don't know me, sir, and I can
guarantee you my
mind is open on this matter.
EFRAIM HALEVY: Well, maybe we could make common ground if we
met some
day.
GEORGE NEGUS: What a good idea. What a good idea. Thank you
very much
for your time. And next time I'm in Israel I will look forward to
meeting you and talking to you face-to-face.
EFRAIM HALEVY: Thank you.