MIKHAIL GORBACHEV INTERVIEW- Wednesday 26th July, 2006
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Gorbachev, thank you very much for your time.
I
realise that it's a busy schedule that you've got in our country.
MIKHAIL GORBACHEV, FORMER SOVIET LEADER (Translation): Thank
you for
your interest in our visit.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can I ask you to begin, you said that you fear
that the
bloodshed in Lebanon could get worse. It could spread beyond the Middle
East. How great is your fear? Do you fear a World War III scenario,
possibly?
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): I don’t think it
will go as
far as World War III. We will come to our senses. But before we reach
the point where we come to our senses, too many things are going to be
ruined, too many. And it all started with an attempt, to get back two
soldiers. And here are the results. If it continues at this pace, then
I think that the British Foreign Minister was right when he said that
what was happening was not a surgical operation but rather something
more serious, and that the Americans must understand what it is all
leading to.
The Americans defended Israel actions…To tell the truth I
… I really pity Israel and the Israelis. This action will
whip up resentment against them. And that country has been living under
pressure for decades, with a machine-gun at their side, as people say.
I wonder who needs this. Who needs this turn of events now? When events
reach this point, and become so acute and visibly inhumane, I am ready
to say that I personally condemn such actions.
GEORGE NEGUS: You've said that terrorism needs to be stopped,
but, like
many other people, you believe that the way that the Israelis have
reacted, is not justified, it's been disproportionate to what's
happened. I mean, who do you really blame in the long run for the
situation - is it Hezbollah's fault or the Israelis' reaction to what
Hezbollah did?
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): You know I would rather not
go into
such calculations… about who is more to blame. The situation
there…This confrontation has very deep roots. I don't share
the view of those who think that Israel has no right to exist.
GEORGE NEGUS: But what do we do now? What do we do to stop
this?
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): I think the Security Council
must have
an urgent meeting and issue this demand immediately, And Israel must
submit to it. And the other side must submit as well. They too are
firing missiles. And then the process must begin, it will be difficult,
as usual, but it must be a diplomatic and political process.
GEORGE NEGUS: But why should that work when both sides are, in
fact, in
breach of United Nations declarations? Both Hezbollah have not disarmed
and the Israelis occupying the Occupied Territories, is also against a
United Nations declaration, so why should we expect Hezbollah or the
Israelis to respond to a demand by the UN for a cease-fire?
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): Do you know what the greatest
danger
is? That the precedent is being created… that when some
breach of international law is detected, the immediate reaction is to
use force, and to actually employ force on a large scale. In my opinion
this approach means nothing but danger and is fraught with
consequences. Things must be done within the limits of international
law and there are tools for this.
GEORGE NEGUS: You have said that you fear other nations could
be drawn
into this exchange that's occurring now.
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): If Lebanon can be treated in
this way,
it creates an atmosphere in which people try to solve their problems in
this way. If people take pre-emptive actions and engage in pre-emptive
strikes and so forth, I think we might be taken too far. We
won’t think our way out of this. Force will be used. And that
means victims and destruction and that means our diplomacy is in
crisis. And so are international politics.
GEORGE NEGUS: The Americans are standing by and watching this
happen.
What do you think the American role should be? We're talking about the
Israelis here.
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): The US President
…once
again said that he supports Israel. You can do a lot under American
protection. They mustn't serve as a protecting roof. They must make the
Security Council our common roof and our common judge. And we must
operate in accordance with it’s rules and in accordance with
international law.
People understand something very wrong is going on. And thinking and
informed people ask themselves, “Perhaps the whole agenda is
different? Perhaps they’re trying to pull us into something
else?” Imagine how many negotiations and peace processes will
be scuttled as a result of this action. People everywhere will be
trying to use force. The Russian proverb says…I
don’t know if Australians have a similar
one…”Brawn beats brains.” That is the
principle.
But we are now living a world where we need a lot of brains and we need
intelligent people in politics. Especially where international politics
is concerned.
GEORGE NEGUS: And do you think we're lacking that now?
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): Everybody is lacking it. I
think that
unless our civil society intervenes, unless the people step forward and
demand that all parties stop and mend the situation, I think
we’ll be in a … You asked me about
America….I can’t blame the Americans for anything,
not in this case. As the sole remaining super power they have a great
role to play. But that role means even greater responsibility, and I
think they tend to forget that. That means that some other interests
are being served. So tell us what those interests are and then the
world will decide whether it agrees to it.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is there a historical irony here, because when
there were
two superpowers of which you were the leader of one, there seemed to be
a balance, there seemed to be the Russian influence, the Soviet
influence, over the Arab nations, the American influence over Israel
and somehow or other, that seemed to be stopping this sort of thing
that's going on now from occurring.
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): It was a balance in which so
many
nuclear weapons were stockpiled in the USSR and the USA that life on
earth could have been destroyed, hundreds of times. The very
foundations of life could have been wiped out. And all the positions,
all the political rivals, all the ideologies would have burned on a
nuclear pyre. But I must say that once again I see the signs of an
emerging arms race. And instead of solving extremely serious
problems…I mean, about half the world’s population
lives in poverty, it takes just a week to collect $100 or $200 billion
for military activities. Yet we cannot find $50 billion to spend within
the next 10 years on research in the field of solar power, and other
alternative sources of energy. That is the militarised mentality. We
are all suffering from acute militarism. A military psychosis of sorts.
We must trust in human beings and not arms.
GEORGE NEGUS: I know you are concerned about nuclear power and
it’s effects, you have said that you think it is dangerous
and uneconomical. Our Prime Minister, John Howard is saying that he
actually thinks that we should consider enriching uranium, that we
should head down the path towards nuclear power. What is your advice to
him?
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): I’ll tell you now.
I’ll say something. Yes, I have been through a lot. But my
conclusions are based not on fear but on my analysis of situations. My
advice and criticism would be worthless if they were just based on fear
or anger and general bitterness with the world. “That is how
Gorbachev was treated…” No. I am still in good
shape. I’m boasting of it.
GEORGE NEGUS: You don't look like a bitter person.
MAKHAIL GORBACHEV (Translation): No. That is what
I’m saying.
I keep in shape. And it’s a godsend for terrorists. Nuclear
power plants always are. So there are a lot of problems that require us
to be very careful with nuclear energy, old plants must be disposed of.
Do you know how much effort and expense that involves? The initial
costs and the final costs are huge. Put them together and
it’s not so cheap. On the contrary, to some extent it
operates at a loss.
Those countries that possess the capacity to solve their energy
problems by using traditional sources should not rush into building new
plants. I do not consider your government to be irresponsible. I expect
them to consider the matter carefully and I think it will be resolved
democratically, involving the democratic institutions as well as the
citizens of this country. They should weigh up everything carefully.
I would also like to say something about nuclear weapons. There can be
no winners in a nuclear war and nuclear war can not be allowed to
happen. But look, nuclear weapons are now considered, first by the US,
then followed by Russia, as always, as a first strike and even a
pre-emptive strike weapon. But we should remember that in one SS18
missile…One such missile, it is a 10-warhead missile,
contains 100Chernobyls. One missile, and there are thousands of them.
So this problem to do with nuclear energy will remain extremely
important, and everything must be done to keep the situation under
control. That means we must strictly adhere to the Non-Proliferation
Treaty, get rid of nuclear weapons and we must consider very carefully
and responsibly the issue of whether or not to build nuclear power
plants.
GEORGE NEGUS: That sounds like a good point to end on, and I
have to
say that Mikhail Gorbachev was once a politician and is still a
politician. Thank you very much for your time. Appreciate it. Enjoy
your stay in our country.