REV JESSE JACKSON INTERVIEW - Wednesday, 21 st February, 2007
GEORGE NEGUS: Reverend, this is a pretty unusual interview
because I didn't think that I'd be talking to a man like you about the
Australian Prime Minister involving himself in American domestic
politics. I mean, what did you make of John Howard's attack on Barack
Obama?
REV JESSE JACKSON, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Because he believes
in the
American invasion and occupation of Iraq. I'm not sure what drove him
to that point, except he was meddling in the internal affairs.
GEORGE NEGUS: You see it as meddling?
REV JESSE JACKSON: As meddling in the internal affairs of
American
politics. But in a strange kind of way it really helped Obama because
it gave him even more international stature - the fact that his
candidacy would evoke from the leader of another nation a response.
GEORGE NEGUS: It certainly means that Barack Obama is now well
known in
Australia, whereas probably a couple of weeks ago not very many
Australians knew him.
REV JESSE JACKSON: It does that. But, you know, sometimes
arrogance
makes us overreach. George Bush often tries to suggest the leaders of
other countries, and it is just not good diplomacy.
GEORGE NEGUS: I'll tell you what he actually said. His exact
words were
- because I'd like your reaction to them - "If I were running al-Qa'ida
in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008 and be praying as many
times as possible for a victory, not only for Obama, but also for the
Democrats." That's a heck of a political call.
REV JESSE JACKSON: It is a very direct political call because
al-Qa'ida
hit us on George Bush's watch, 9/11 took place on George Bush's watch.
We have pursued Taliban and Osama bin Laden and didn't catch them on
Bush's watch. We made this inexplicable turn into Iraq, where we've
lost lives, money, honour and the coalition on Bush's watch. Surely
he's not suggesting that if the Democrats win, things can get worse. I
mean, all we can do now is to look at our field policy and change the
course. We need more diplomatic outreach toward Iran, Syria and Middle
Eastern allies, and less bluster and less threats, and fewer troops.
GEORGE NEGUS: His line is that a withdrawal, a hasty exit from
Iraq
equals defeat for America, and as he sees it, defeat for America is a
massive victory for the terrorists. Now, you've been implacably opposed
to the war
REV JESSE JACKSON: It is already a defeat for America. You
know, when
we were hit on 9/11 it took us a few weeks to get the coalition
together because Bush had come in with a kind of narrow ideology,
looking at the world, I'd say, through a keyhole and not through a
door. So these are bad choices and then we got deeper in it, we began
to lose lives and lose the coalition and it became virtually an
American war.
GEORGE NEGUS: Let me get you right - you believe that it's a
defeat
already for America. As distinct from John Howard saying that to pull
out would be a defeat, it already is.
REV JESSE JACKSON: It's already a defeat. The US involvement
there
– we've become embroiled in the mud and we're stuck. And we
are organising our enemies into a formidable force, we are The US
public has turned against the war, the Republicans and Democrats have
turned against the war. And so when the American public turns against
the war and the Congress turns against the war, it suggests that
Americans feel we cannot win that war in those conditions. So the Iraqi
Commission says, "Well, we can't win this war militarily, we need to
reassess potential allies." There's Syria, there's Iran and…
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you expect, by the way, an invasion of Iran?
That
might seem like a blunt question, but do you anticipate America ever
seriously contemplating an invasion of Iran?
REV JESSE JACKSON: Iran? Well, this administration might very
well do
that. It would be a compounded mistake.
GEORGE NEGUS: Reverend, do you agree with Barack Obama when he
says
American troops should be pulled out, or at least the start of pulling
American troops out should occur in March of 2008? Do you think his
exit policy is appropriate?
REV JESSE JACKSON: Well, it is. But it's not just Barack's
policy -
there's a shared view that when you are in a hole you look for a rope
and not for a shovel. We are in a hole now looking for more shovels to
dig deeper, we should be looking for ropes. But I think that we owe to
the Iraqi people whose country we tore up, some exit plan that empowers
them at the same time. I'm convinced that this administration does not
have the moral authority to do that.
GEORGE NEGUS: So what would you say to John Howard because he
is still
supporting his friend George Bush, without any doubt whatsoever that
what George Bush is doing is correct, and believes that a pullout
beginning in March next year would be a disaster – a victory
for the terrorists as he put it?
REV JESSE JACKSON: Well, the invasion only made matters worse.
The
occupation will not work, Iraq is unoccupiable, that will not work. The
question becomes what kind of coalition can we build that will make a
transition and empower the people of Iraq? Right now the American
soldiers' presence there is an act of provocation. There's a big red
ball on the back of every American soldier in that country, so our
being there contributes to the crisis, it does not resolve the crisis.
So this may be the time for a real UN re-entry.
GEORGE NEGUS: Reverend, can we talk about Barack Obama,
because he is
not as well known to us as he is to you, certainly. You say he's got,
and I think - if you were quoted rightly - "He's got the right stuff.
He's got my vote." What's this right stuff?
REV JESSE JACKSON: Well, in part he has my vote because he's
from my
state, he certainly has the intelligence, he has the appeal. He'll
face, however, stiff competition.
GEORGE NEGUS: I must admit, it must have been a tough decision
for you
to say he's got your vote because you have been very close to the
Clintons over the years.
REV JESSE JACKSON: Well, I remain close to the Clintons. It
does not
make me an enemy to Hillary Clinton. I have the highest regard for her.
And she stands...she has the inside track to winning the nomination.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could I put to you some of the things that
Barack Obama's
critics say. He is not really one of you, one of the children of the
civil rights movement, he is not really an Afro-American. He's got this
almost rock star status, where people say that he's got more style than
substance. He's not guaranteed of the black vote, a lot of people say.
And not only that, he's got a Muslim aspect to his background.
REV JESSE JACKSON: Well, let's unravel some of that. First of
all, we
should, he is relatively new to the scene, so a lot more people know
him through TV than know him on the ground, and that itself is a
weakness because you can be admired because you are impressionable, but
not followed because you have relationships. So right now there is a
gap between those who admire him and those who follow him, and so that
gap must be closed. As for his being an Afro-American, I think no-one
can determine who their parents are. His is a white mother and a black
father. So I think that we should not wallow in that. I don't think
that's healthy, I don't think it's right.
GEORGE NEGUS: What about the style versus substance argument?
REV JESSE JACKSON: Well, he does have a good style and, of
course, some
substance will come in time. I say judge him by votes of substance and
not get sidetracked by issues about who his parents were. I mean, he is
a year older than John Kennedy was in terms of age, and one says he
doesn't have a lot of Washington experience. There's a lot of
experience in Washington that's bad experience.
GEORGE NEGUS: What do you think the issue which will turn the
election
might be? Will it be Iraq or will things have swung back to American
domestic policy by then?
REV JESSE JACKSON: No, Iraq will drive American agenda for a
long time
because Iraq policy has so damaged America in the Middle East region,
left us isolated. We are there now by brute strength, we are not there
because we are desired. Coming into World War II, we were seen as a
conquering hero for beleaguered people, we are now seen as invader, an
occupier. And what that is saying is we have more might than right, so
we kind of have a kind of moral deficit disorder. And that's why a
leader must lift us back to the higher ground, because at the end of
the day what makes you strong is that you are believable, that as
significant as might is, ultimately right is even stronger than might.
Today, if you and I got on an airplane, you're going to L.A., Los
Angeles, and I'm going to Senegal, we get there about the same time.
The world is just that small. So a world that is so tightly bound by
science and technology and now Internet and the web page, that world is
too small for bullies. It has no room in that world for arrogance. We
in fact must be driven by a sense of character and worth. We must be
seen as contributors to net growth and not the net division and/or
conquest.
GEORGE NEGUS: Reverend, thanks very much for talking to us. I
know you
are very, very busy.
REV JESSE JACKSON: Thank you, sir. Thank you.