MORGAN TSVANGIRAI INTERVIEW - Wednesday 4th April, 2007
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Tsvangirai, Robert Mugabe said at the weekend
that you deserved the beating you got from the police and that when he
met with African leaders, he got full backing, that not even one of
them criticised his actions. How does that make you feel, given what
you have been through?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI, ZIMBABWEAN OPPOSITION LEADER: Well, I feel
outrageous. This is outrageous for a man who is supposed to be head of
state. Look, this is not a personal issue. I have always said that this
is a clash of two visions between Robert Mugabe and Morgan Tsvangirai.
There is nothing personal about it. But Robert Mugabe represents a
vision of the past, he always talks about his liberation credentials,
and Morgan Tsvangirai talks about the future and a new Zimbabwe. So
that is the contestation that is there, so it is nothing personal.
GEORGE NEGUS: You are in South Africa at the moment. Are you
recovering
from the injuries you received?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Yes, I've been given a clean bill of health
by the
doctor yesterday after a thorough check. I'm on a full recovery path.
GEORGE NEGUS: I imagine that you are eager to get back into
the fray,
but do you think that Robert Mugabe will allow you back into Zimbabwe
given his crackdown on you and your party?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Yes, I think there's no reason. I haven't
committed
an offence. I'll be back in the country and carrying out the work that
we are doing.
GEORGE NEGUS: It would appear that your party is in disarray -
people
have been jailed, they've disappeared, and your offices had been
ransacked, political rallies have been banned. How can you possibly
mount a serious challenge to Robert Mugabe?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Well, this is a diversionary issue. Mugabe
thinks
that by embarking on a campaign against the opposition that the
opposition will disappear. It will not disappear, we have the support
of the people and we've had the support of the people for change for
the last 7.5 years. Nothing he's going to do to decapitate the
organisation will lead to the disappearance of the MDC. As far as the
democratic, the peaceful democratic resistance is concerned, we will
continue to organise people around that and that is the pressure that
has realised the crisis.
GEORGE NEGUS: But how do you get rid of him? Through internal
revolt
within his own party, the so-called soft diplomacy the South Africans
talk about? Or will they have to be outside intervention, say from the
UN?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Well I don't think that international
intervention
is the appropriate way to proceed. I think that a combination of
national action, putting pressure on him, a combination of regional
pressure as has already been outlined during the SADC summit, through a
negotiated settlement, is the only way of getting rid of him. We have
not reached a stage where like other African states where people have
even considered a military option or intervention. It's not necessary.
I mean, we have gone through that road before during out liberation
struggle, and we don't need to repeat it.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Tsvangirai, occasionally you must feel that
the rest
of the world has copped out on Zimbabwe. It has been wringing its hands
a lot, but is it really doing anything to assist your cause?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: I think the struggle against Robert Mugabe
has
assumed different phases and I think we have entered a phase where this
matter has now been internationalised, to the extent that the
international community has been made aware of the extent of the
crisis. And I think we are beginning to see outrage which has never
been seen before and hope that that adds up to the pressure that we
expect.
GEORGE NEGUS: The basic question surely is how long can the
economy
hold out? You have 1,700% inflation, four out of five people
unemployed, the country is almost non-existent. It is almost beyond
being a basket case.
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: I think that the people have endured a lot
of
pressure, have endured a lot of deprivation and I'm sure they are
prepared to endure all the way to freedom. There is nothing that is
going to stop them. The people of Zimbabwe are resilient as far as this
regime is concerned. It may take a little while, but I think eventually
people will prevail.
GEORGE NEGUS: Well, what is a little while?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: You can't put a time frame on it and I
think it's
presumptuous to put a time frame on any struggle. It assumes its
various phases and I think we are entering, as we call it, the home
stretch of this struggle.
GEORGE NEGUS: What are we talking here, years, months or what?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Yes, no, no, no. I think the beginning of
the end is
starting to demonstrate itself.
GEORGE NEGUS: And you are convinced that Robert Mugabe is
headed
towards the exit?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: I am sure he would agree with me that this
is the
beginning of the end of Robert Mugabe and I have no doubt about it.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Tsvangirai, is there anything even vaguely
resembling
normal daily life in your country at the moment?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Well, what I can tell you is that certainly
the
people of Zimbabwe are struggling. They are on a daily struggle for
survival with massive unemployment, mass poverty, the AIDS pandemic,
lack of food. I think those are situations that are totally
unacceptable in any society. But the situation is certainly in a
catastrophic state.
GEORGE NEGUS: But you don't think outside intervention is
required, but
what is your attitude towards economic sanctions?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: There's a difference between outside
intervention
and solidarity with the people of Zimbabwe. There are certain things
that should be done. The Human Rights Commission should come and
investigate, this matter should be put forward before the UN Security
Council. There should be all those kinds of attempts but that is the
kind of multilateral intervention we are talking about, not
intervention militarily, of course.
GEORGE NEGUS: What about their contention that sanctions will
hurt the
very people who need assistance at the moment given the dire state of
your economy?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Yes, that may be the argument but there is
no
economy to talk about. I mean, with 95% unemployment with 34 years life
expectancy, what kind of economy are we talking about? All the
industries have closed down, the agriculture has closed down - that was
the mainstay of the economy, so what kind of industry, we have 3
million people trekking across the border, into South Africa almost by
now, and others in the UK and the US. So we've lost almost a third of
the country. What kind of economy are they talking about? Really we
can't hurt any further than the people of the country have already been
hit so far.
GEORGE NEGUS: Sounds like Zimbabwe is the country you have
when you
don't have a country.
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Well, I think in other countries, we have
not
reached the stage of Somalia but really this is a typical case of a
failed state still standing.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Tsvangirai, last week a church leader
described Magabe
as racist, corrupt and lawless, how do you describe him?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: This is a dictator that is just in a
defence
project, he is like a man who is burning down the building just because
people have threatened his power. I would agree with those
qualifications that it's corrupt, it's militarised, there's no
semblance of civilian administration because he is running a structure
of power in the country.
GEORGE NEGUS: How is it that a man who was a liberation hero
in his
country reach this point? Is it megalomania or what?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: I am not a psychiatrist but I can tell you
that when
he was ruling quite fairly, democratically, people loved him. But when
his failed policies began to show and began to affect Zimbabweans, he
became a tyrant. And so I think they say absolute power corrupts
absolutely and I think that is the stage that we have reached.
GEORGE NEGUS: But I guess I have to ask you again - in
reality, how do
you get rid of a tyrant then, this Houdini as he is called?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: We have had so many tyrants in the world to
have
experienced this. But I think that eventually dictators don't outlive
themselves, eventually the people will prevail.
GEORGE NEGUS: How likely do you think is an attempt within his
own
party, or the military or the police or other forces to get rid of him?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: What we know is that there is serious
dissention
within the securocrat, within his own party. Whether that is going to
be translated into some kind of unlawful overthrow, I don't know.
GEORGE NEGUS: As things stand right now, he has been endorsed
by his
party to run next year in the elections. He has even got tacit support
from African leaders. He must be feeling pretty safe right now?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: It's a hollow confidence because in his own
party he
just railroaded his candidature. In the African Union, this is
certainly something that is just in the public. But in the private I
think they told him what he didn't want to hear and that is that it's
time for him to go.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Tsvangirai, can I ask you a question of local
concern
in our country? Do you think the Australian cricket team should cancel
their planned tour of Zimbabwe later this year and would they actually
be condoning the Magabe regime by playing there?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: What I understand is there is no sports
boycott of
Zimbabwe at the moment and until that position has been reached, sports
sanctions, a sports boycott, I don't see how they can stop coming to
Zimbabwe.
GEORGE NEGUS: But surely cricket is a pretty unimportant thing
given
the violence and hardship in your country right now?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think sport
is
something that is secondary. What is important is how do you survive,
how do you have your daily meal. That is a much greater priority than
sport.
GEORGE NEGUS: I would have thought so. Is there one of the
single thing
that the people of Australia, the government of Australia, could do to
assist Zimbabwe at the moment?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: Well, I think that through multilateral
organisations, the UN, the Commonwealth, all those multilateral
organisations, I think Australia can continue to play an influential
role in making sure that this issue is resolved. One of the most
important things is that people have to appreciate the fact that this
crisis should not be allowed to degenerate into a conflict like we have
witnessed in all African states, with all the consequences, human
rights crises that follows.
GEORGE NEGUS: Are you confident that the situation won't get
worse?
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: It can't get any worse than it has already
reached.
I think that what is important is the situation is totally
unacceptable, it's unsustainable, so therefore the solution should be
found now. What is happening in Zimbabwe must stop now and that is the
most important emphasis.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Tsvangirai, thank you very much for your time.
MORGAN TSVANGIRAI: You're welcome.
GEORGE NEGUS: Morgan Tsvangirai, probably lucky to be alive
after
surviving Robert Mugabe's henchmen. We agreed not to disclose the
whereabouts of his South African safe house. And back in Zimbabwe, the
government has boosted police patrols and waged a propaganda blitz
against a 2-day national strike over wages. Expect to hear a lot more
from that troubled country.