GERHARD HEIBERG INTERVIEW - Wednesday 30th April, 2008
Literally the running international controversy over the
torch,
human rights, Tibet and China, and to boycott or not to boycott the
opening Olympic ceremony in Beijing in three months time. For
generations, of course, Norway has been a bastion of traditional
Scandinavian social values and a champion of human rights. Since the
furore over the torch erupted, many Norwegians, politicians, Olympic
athletes, the media and members of the public have been calling for a
harder line - even a boycott against China's questionable human rights
record, particularly its crackdown in Tibet. This man, Gerhard Heiberg,
ran the Winter Olympics here back in 1994. Currently he's the executive
IOC board member in charge of marketing the Beijing Games.
GEORGE NEGUS: Thank you very much for your time. Jacques Rogge has
actually described the situation as a crisis and the whole Olympic
movement as in turmoil. Did you imagine that things would become as bad
as they have as quickly as they have?
GERHARD HEIBERG, INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE: No, I
imagined
that we would have a rough time, but times are rougher than what I
thought, and basically we cannot interfere in a sovereign state's
domestic or foreign policy. That's been our aim all the time. This time
we had to do it, as I said, because little by little we understand that
the domestic policy and the foreign policy of China could influence the
result of the Games in August. Then we have to take things up, discuss
with them, and hopefully be able to influence them.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you've said now that politics, whether we
like it
or not, have become involved in the Olympic movement, particularly
where the Beijing Games are concerned, we have to accept that reality?
That politics are inextricably tied to the Games now?
GERHARD HEIBERG: Unfortunately, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: So what kind of action, what kind of influence,
can and is the IOC bringing to bear on the Chinese?
GERHARD HEIBERG: For the time being, I don't think there's any
body
in the world that can influence as much as the IOC, and of course that
will last until the end of the Games, but for the time being we feel we
have a possibility, we are talking to the Chinese, the Chinese are
listening, we are listening to them, and hopefully we can find some
solution. We feel and they feel we're moving in the right direction and
especially after they got the Games in 2001.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can you honestly say they have been moving in
the
right direction given what's been happening in Tibet, which is what
sparked most people's outrage throughout the world - the way they were
treating people in Tibet very recently. Can we really say they have a
commitment to improve when many people, including Amnesty
International, would say that things are getting worse in China?
GERHARD HEIBERG: Yes, but they are looking at individuals - we
have
1.3 billion Chinese. And we feel that their rights collectively are
being improved. Of course, we have examples which are not good, and I
accept the fact that this is not good, I read the report of Amnesty
International, there are examples which should not have been there.
What we say is that we cannot accept violence. You should solve this in
a positive way, you should negotiate and try to be friends instead of
shooting at each other.
GEORGE NEGUS: As we talk it's only about 100 days before the
opening, and people are talking about boycotting the opening ceremony.
Could it deteriorate so badly that you, the IOC, may be faced with a
decision whether or not to go ahead or not?
GERHARD HEIBERG: We hope is that this will little by little
calm
down, and that the Games will be the success we all want them to be.
GEORGE NEGUS: But it's a hope, isn't it, it's not a guarantee?
GERHARD HEIBERG: Nobody can give a guarantee. We can never
give a
guarantee, not even to Australia or to Athens at the time. What I am
afraid of is that the more we push from the West, the more we threaten
with boycotts, the more the people in China will get angry and we may
see a stop of the communications, of the dialogue we have with the
Chinese, and that would not be very good for either party.
GEORGE NEGUS: Are you confident that the freedom of the press
which
the Chinese have promised during the Games will actually occur, or are
there certain forbidden issues and areas that are no-go areas, that if
anybody tries to write about contentious issues during the Games, then
the Chinese will clamp down?
GERHARD HEIBERG: This is a lot of back and forth. We negotiate
on a
regular basis with the Chinese about this. At this stage I would say we
have got a guarantee again that there are around 25,000 journalists
coming from the outside will have the possibility to travel anywhere
and report anything they see. What I'm afraid of is that a lot of
journalists from the West, they are negative, they come to look for the
negative parts and that could mean there are some difficulties.
GEORGE NEGUS: Are they negative parts, or are they aspects of
Chinese life and politics that the Chinese don't want us to report?
GERHARD HEIBERG: Sure, I'm not saying that this is right or
wrong, I'm just saying that this could cause some turbulence.
GEORGE NEGUS: What about the athletes? How can you stop an
athlete
from expressing their feelings anywhere, at a conference with the media
or even on the dais as they are receiving their medal?
GERHARD HEIBERG: When you see an Olympic arena you see
absolutely no
advertising, when you see how they dress, absolutely no advertising, no
propaganda, no sign of any company. We feel that the venues should be
clean and the clothing should be clean, so that's why we say don't
bring any propaganda, demonstrations into the venues, or on your
clothing. You can do it outside if you like.
GEORGE NEGUS: A 'Free Tibet' symbol, or something like that?
GERHARD HEIBERG: Yes, because we don't have any advertising at
all,
so I hope and I think they will respect this, but what happens outside,
they are free to speak about whatever they like.
GEORGE NEGUS: So what happens if somebody does display a 'Free
Tibet' symbol? Or 'more human rights for China'?
GERHARD HEIBERG: He or she should be taken out, whether it's
the
opening ceremony or whether it's competition days, if this happens on a
venue. I hope and I think that person will be taken away.
GEORGE NEGUS: Would they be removed by the IOC or by the
Chinese?
GERHARD HEIBERG: That detail I cannot answer you at the stage.
I don't know, because -
GEORGE NEGUS: I think it would be the IOC, surely.
GERHARD HEIBERG: If we have enough people working for us, it
could be the IOC.
GEORGE NEGUS: I mean, do you anticipate trouble like that? I
mean,
it is almost - to any outsider not as intimately associated with the
discussions you are having with the Chinese, it seems almost inevitable
..
GERHARD HEIBERG: Yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: that at least one if not more athletes will
attempt to demonstrate against the Chinese policy.
GERHARD HEIBERG: Of course, we expect that to happen. This
will
happen, the way things are being discussed, the propaganda from a lot
of the NGOs. Of course, this will probably happen in Beijing during the
Games, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: The Olympics are intended to be a place to bring
people together, where differences are set aside, left at home, if you
like, outside the arena. This does not look like that kind of Games at
all. This looks like a divided Games with people who are pro-Tibet and
anti-Chinese and the people who pro-Chinese and anti-Tibet. It's hardly
going to be a friendly Games, it's going to be a very disunited Games.
Is that bad for the long-term future of the Olympic movement?
GERHARD HEIBERG: I hope not but I see that we may have some
problems. As I said, the West and East, we don't understand each other
at this stage. Let's hope that it will improve before the Games, but we
may have some tough discussions after the Games as well because the
reputation of the IOC is absolutely suffering because of what's going
on. There is no question about it.
GEORGE NEGUS: How would you describe that suffering? What is
it, what form is it taking?
GERHARD HEIBERG: People are taking a closer look at the IOC,
what do
we stand for, how could this happen, why didn't you take a tougher
stand in the one or the other direction? So people are asking questions
and this does not go very well with the ideals and the values of the
Olympic Charter. That is why we see that here we have to have some
tough discussions after the Games.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it possible the Chinese might say enough is
enough?
GERHARD HEIBERG: Yes, that is what I am afraid about. That is
why I
say the more that we threaten with boycotts and so on, it is possible
that they say, "To hell are with you guys, we're going to do it our
way," which will be different.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yes it would. "To hell with you guys, we're
going to
do it our way." That is probably the worst case scenario. Do you think
the Games would fall apart at that point?
GERHARD HEIBERG: I hope not, but I never hope and think that
we will get far, but there is a danger.
GEORGE NEGUS: It is a big danger, isn't it?
GERHARD HEIBERG: There's a danger.
GEORGE NEGUS: That they might dig their heels in so hard whole
thing could unravel.
GERHARD HEIBERG: I would call it a danger, you call it a big
danger.
GEORGE NEGUS: Your country has got a wonderful tradition on
social
values and human rights. Have you been under a lot of pressure in your
own country on this? Because Norway would be, like most people, divided
on this issue, but I would expect most Norwegians would want you to
take a tougher stand.
GERHARD HEIBERG: You're telling me. I feel I am all alone
defending
the Chinese and trying to speak for the Chinese in my country, maybe
with the exception of the Chinese ambassador to Norway.
GEORGE NEGUS: Right.
GERHARD HEIBERG: Otherwise I am alone and I am under heavy
attack
every day from all kinds of people and the media, so I have an
interesting time.
GEORGE NEGUS: I'll bet you have. It's ironic, isn't it, that
you can
almost call the Chinese ambassador in Norway your latest best friend?
GERHARD HEIBERG: Yes, I think we stick together and we are
almost alone on this.
GEORGE NEGUS: Nice talking to you. Thank you very much.
Gerhard Heiberg, the IOC marketing chief, caught between a rock and a
rock, you could say. As he told me, the man Norwegians love to hate
right now.