DR ANWAR IBRAHIM INTERVIEW - Wednesday 18th April, 2007
GEORGE NEGUS: Doctor, it's good to see you. You bob up all
over the place these days. Here you are, out of jail after all of those
years, but still in political limbo in your own country. What is it
that drives you to keep going back into trouble?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM, FORMER MALAYSIAN DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: It's
not a
question of going into trouble, I mean, I don't have a choice. I am
committed to the reform agenda. I have given this pledge and I must
remain consistent.
GEORGE NEGUS: At this stage you are to all intents and
purposes banned
from speaking in your own country, you can't actually take part in the
politics of your own country, but you have already put up your hand and
said yes, you want to run in the next election.
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: It is my basic right as a citizen. The
previous
administration used a corpse to deny me of this right. How do you
expect me to submit to a process that is fundamentally flawed,
condemned by the international community?
GEORGE NEGUS: Legally, correct me if I'm wrong, you can't
participate
in Malaysian politics until April of next year?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: What law are you talking about, George? This
is a
legal process
GEORGE NEGUS: If you tried to speak, you can't speak publicly.
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: I did, and I continue to do so. There a lot
of
restrictions - I can't enter any university in the country, permits had
been denied, no report in the mainstream media controlled by the
government. Notwithstanding, I'm exercising my rights.
GEORGE NEGUS: They are never going to let you have the freedom.
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: Well, there is a slim chance that Prime
Minister
Abdullah will act according to the principles of justice..
GEORGE NEGUS: He seems to be putting everything he possibly
can in your
way.
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: That's fine, but I am an optimist, an
incorrigible
optimist.
GEORGE NEGUS: The next big thing in Malaysian politics, you
were once
called. The former golden boy of South-East Asian politics. Some people
even saw you as a Nelson Mandela of Malaysia. Is it possible that you
are more popular and have more credibility and more support outside
your country than inside? That maybe Anwar Ibrahim's time has come and
gone? You've had your moment?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: That's what the ruling party would like to
believe.
If that is so
GEORGE NEGUS: I didn't talk to them before I said that, by the
way.
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: Why the courts? Why the restrictions? Why
the
complete ban in the media? Why use the courts? Why use the police? If
Anwar is irrelevant, then you can just ignore him. But I think, to the
contrary, I do receive some support. I'm not in a position to gauge the
extent of support, because it can only be done through a free, fair
election that we don't have in Malaysia.
GEORGE NEGUS: If you had to compare Mahathir's Malaysia with
Badawi's
Malaysia, how would you describe the difference?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: The policies are quite the same. The system
operates
under the judiciary under the behest of political leaders, the media is
completely under the control of the ruling party, yes, but Mahathir
used crude, brutal force. Abdullah certainly has shown a lot of, ah ..
GEORGE NEGUS: Subtlety?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: ..more subtle and slightly at times, even
some
compassion.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it a democracy?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: Certainly it is not a democracy. The best
way to
describe Malaysia under the present regime is soft authoritarianism.
GEORGE NEGUS: Soft authoritarianism. Let's talk about Dr
Mahathir, your
old nemesis. You say, I think, that you've forgiven him but you've not
forgotten what happened. So why have you decided to take legal action
against him?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: I have said no malice towards him, or anyone.
GEORGE NEGUS: He's obviously still got malice towards
you.
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: Yes, and he repeats it. He continues to
condemn me
and continues to cast malicious, scurrilous attacks against me. And I
said, "Please don't, you are getting to be obsolete and you're getting
very personal." And after the third time he repeated, then I decided to
institute civil proceedings against him. Knowing the limitations of the
system and the judiciary, but not withstanding I would exercise my
right.
GEORGE NEGUS: Have any members of your family ever said,
"Enough is
enough. You're pushing a gigantic rock uphill. You're not going to make
it"?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: They suffered immensely all these years. My
wife, my
children, and my close associates. And they remain committed.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you're not going to give up, clearly?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: How do you surrender to the corrupt? How do
you
submit to your jailers?
GEORGE NEGUS: The great religious divide in the world today,
between
the Islamic and the non-Islamic world, something that you are very
passionate about. You've said, as I understand it, that you think that
both Iraq and the war on terror have been failures because of
Islamophobia in the West. Is that what you feel?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: Yes, clearly. I mean, the rationale for the
US
Administration to launch the war against Saddam in Iraq was, again,
proven to be wrong. It is a clear case of deception. And now having
seen the effects and the result, the worst crimes, calamities, in Iraq,
we'll have to change course.
GEORGE NEGUS: Whoever is to blame, are we stuck with the age
of terror
for 10, 20, 30 years?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: There are issues that have reached so many
people.
You have to correct them, too. I'm not giving them an excuse, I'm not
apologising for those who perpetrate crimes or terror. Tough measures
must be taken against them irrespective of whether they are Muslims or
Christians or Jews or whatever.
GEORGE NEGUS: Dr Mahathir had a strange relationship with this
country,
and he's still been criticising Australia. But you believe that we have
got things wrong as well. You believe that Australia, if you have been
quoted correctly, still has racist aspects to it, still has a white
supremacist view of its role in Asia.
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: No, I wouldn't go to that extent. I think
you should
differentiate my position and Mahathir's position on this. There is a
difference between the attitude of the government and the general
Australians. The government in terms of the war, this whole talk about
the war on terror and just submitting like lackeys of the Bush
Administration, the Howard Government attempts to make amends in terms
of their relationship with Asia, but I think that some of the foreign
policy prescriptions are totally absurd. There is no concern,
understanding about the sensitivities. Not only Muslims. Throughout the
world - Asia, China, India, Europe - most of, at random, know that
people resent this entire attack and offensive occupation of Iraq. It
has reached so many people. You can't solve a problem with fanatics by
causing so much hatred and anger with a vast section of the community.
GEORGE NEGUS: So do you believe that Australia's involvement,
in the
coalition of the willing for instance, damages our position in Asia?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: Yes, you're doing it against the feeling of
the
majority of Australians and the majority of Asians. It is an extremely
difficult issue for us to just accept that the occupation has resulted
in more death and there is no end in sight.
GEORGE NEGUS: Would you go so far as to say we shouldn't be
there?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: Certainly, I believe that it was a wrong
decision on
the part of Australia to move and think that they can send troops to
Iraq and solve the problem in the Muslim world.
GEORGE NEGUS: A bit more complicated than that?
DR ANWAR IBRAHIM: It is more complex than that, to assume you
have all
the answers. You just reflect ignorance and arrogance of power and it
is not going to help in understanding and forging an engagment between
East and West, Muslims and non-Muslims throughout the world.
GEORGE NEGUS: Doctor, always good to talk to you. Thank you
for your
time.