ANTONIO GUTERRES INTERVIEW - Wednesday 9th May, 2007
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Guterres, thank you very much for speaking to
us and giving us your time. I've heard the situation in Iraq, where
refugees are concerned, described as the hidden face of that war in
Iraq. We hear of people leaving the country daily, we hear of people
being displaced in their own country, we've just seen a report of
people fleeing across the border to Jordan. How bad is the situation?
How many people are leaving Iraq every day? Do we know?
ANTONIO GUTERRES, UN HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: When you
have 2
million people outside the country, and 1.9 million people inside the
country that had been displaced, it is of course a very serious
problem. The numbers change depending on situation. At the beginning of
the year we had a 40-50,000 people displaced from their homes every
month. I have no figures in relation to the last month but the only
thing I can tell is that it is still a serious problem and it needs the
expression of international solidarity, with the Iraqis themselves, but
especially now with the countries that are making a huge effort in a
very generous way to support them, namely Syria and Jordan, but also
some other neighbours.
GEORGE NEGUS: It would appear that the situation is getting
worse. You
called a special meeting recently to see if you could raise the level
of sensitivity to this issue among countries around the world. Did you
get anywhere?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: I think that the conference we had in a
Geneva was a
very important moment of awareness for the international community in
relation to this problem. Indeed, as you said, what we have is the
attentions of the world focused on the military situation, on the
casualties every day in Baghdad, or in other parts of the country, or
the political developments. But very little information or concern
about the dramatic humanitarian problems created and especially about
the problems of people displaced. Now I believe that there is a clear
conscience in the international community, both in the dimension of the
problem and also of the need to fully engage in support to the
countries that are hosting in such large numbers, Iraqi refugees, and
paying a heavy price in their education and health systems, in their
economy, in their society and even in their security concerns. This
international solidarity is now more necessary than ever.
GEORGE NEGUS: You have said actually that the best solution is
a
political one and that these humanitarian crisis always have political
solutions, but a political solution in Iraq, looks a long way away, so
we are looking at a problem that is going to get a lot worse before it
gets better
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Well it might get worse before it gets
better but it
is absolutely essential that it gets better and that a political
solution is found. There is never a humanitarian solution for a
humanitarian crisis. The solutions for the humanitarian crisis are
always political ones. If one looks at Syria, for example, or Jordan,
you see Shi'ia, Sunnis, Christians - all kinds of Iraqis living
together in relative harmony. If they do that abroad, there is no
reason for them not to be able to do that in Iraq. I think that a very
determined policy of national reconciliation is now necessary and I
hope that once implemented it will produce results.
GEORGE NEGUS: Our country, Australia, is in the coalition of
the
willing. Over the past three or four years of the conflict it would
appear that we have been taking 1,500 refugees from Iraq a year. Do you
think Australia is shouldering its responsibilities enough? Do you
think we should be taking more than that number?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Resettlement of course is important and it
is
important for very the vulnerable situations, For instance, people who
have been tortured, and many members of the family have been killed,
belong to groups that have been particularly targeted and that will
never return, even in the future, as the good solution for them.
Resettlement is only a limited answer. The crucial answer is to create
this whole situation for voluntary return in safety and dignity to be
possible and that is our main priority is to contribute, for that to
finally become a reality. In between, of course the possibility to
increase Resettlement of cultures in different countries of the world
is relevant and I have to say that when you look at the global
resettlement programme, Australia has been one of the most generous
countries in relation to a settlement opportunities offered world wide.
GEORGE NEGUS: But should we be taking more?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Well, if possible, it would be very much
welcomed,
whatever much effort would be made in that direction. But as I said, if
you look at all the countries in the world, Australia is clearly the
group that has always in a consistent way accepted more of the resettle
refugees from around the world.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Guterres, if I could run a particular case
past you,
we have just heard of a story of one man, an Iraqi, who has been
tortured to within an inch of his life and kidnapped and his family was
forced to pay a ransom for his return and now the family is living on
handouts in Jordan. He's been refused access to this country,
Australia, for the second time. What do you think these people who have
to go through to be regarded as genuine refugees?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Well, you know, we have been advocating,
very
clearly, for them to be recognised as refugees. The problem is the most
of the Syrians and Jordanians consider them as guests all visitors in
their countries, according to the Arab tradition of hospitality. What
we have been insisting is very clearly is that independently of the
name given to the people the rights of the refugees are respected in
that context. And I believe that we have to recognise that, broadly,
the protection of these people has been guaranteed. No people have been
sent back against their will to Iraq and the effort made, namely by
Syria and Jordan needs to be recognised as a very generous one and
needs to be supported by the international community. I think the worst
thing would be for the international community not to help these
countries face this problem and then to blame them if anything does not
go well.
GEORGE NEGUS: What about the situation with the Palestinians?
You
describe them as effectively trapped with nowhere to go? What will
happen to the Palestinians left in the camps on the Syrian border? They
are also in a particular situation.
ANTONIO GUTERRES: But the worse situation is for the
Palestinians in
Bagdad, we have about 15,000 there. 600 have been killed recently. They
have been targeted. Some militias consider them to be linked to the
previous regime and some men, women and children had been victimised in
such a way that is totally unexceptable and creates an extremely,
extremely insecure situation - a dramatic situation. And it is true, we
have not been able to find any solution for them. Some of them are
stranded on the borders, there we can assist them, there I think their
security situation is better, but of course they live in very, very
negative conditions in relation to their livelihoods and to their
rights.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Guterres, we can't have you there without
asking you a
question about something that is happening locally at the moment. As a
former prime minister of Portugal and East Timor of course being a
former Portuguese colony, as we speak, the East Timorese are voting for
their new president. Do you give a passing thought to East Timor these
days, do you think it matters who the president will be? Do you have a
preference?
ANTONIO GUTERRES : As a matter of fact, in my present capacity
I cannot
have been any political involvement in any country of the world not
even mine. The only thing that I can say is that one of the most
important causes in my political life has been the cause of the East
Timorese people and I strongly hope that whoever is elected, whatever
happens, that democracy will be stringent and East Timor will find
peace and stability and progress for its population.
GEORGE NEGUS: What do you think about Australia's role in
this, because
you had to deal with Australia when you were prime minister of
Portugal, do you think Australia is been the honest broker that likes
to see itself as being in East Timor?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: I think Australia is an extremely relevant
partner
and a key instrument for the stability, the progress and the support of
the East Timorese. I do believe that the international community cannot
act based on a rivalries or things of that sort. We need to all work
together to help this small country to be able to face such problems
and to face its future with hope and with success.
GEORGE NEGUS: Thanks very much for your time and all the best
with this
immense problem of the world's refugees. Thanks for giving us your
time.
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Thanks very much.
GEORGE NEGUS: Antonio Guterres and these UNHCR figures show
that while
Australia has taken an average of 1,367 Iraqis over the four years
since the invasion, in the same period, the US has taken 192 a year.