HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA INTERVIEW - Wednesday 20th June, 2007
GEORGE NEGUS: Could you tell me why, do you think, Mr Howard
and Mr Rudd - the man who is our Prime Minister and would like to be
our prime minister - why do you think they've been dillydallying, as we
say in the West, about seeing you? Are they right to be fearful of
offending the Chinese by seeing you?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: Of course. Their relations with
China,
good relations with China is certainly important.
GEORGE NEGUS: But what damage could be done to Australia's
relations
with China by seeing a man like yourself?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: According to past experience,
sometimes
the Chinese initially showing some threat but if things go ahead, then
they not necessarily carry or implement that threat.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you think Mr Howard and Mr Rudd may have been
overreacting - far too worried about the Chinese?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: I don't know. I don't know. You
should
judge. People should judge.
GEORGE NEGUS: The Chinese Communist Party regard you as one of
the most
reviled people. They have accused you of waging a clandestine campaign
for Tibetan independence, that you have been fomenting revolution. In
fact, on that basis they actually warned Mr Howard and Mr Rudd not to
see you because you were not the kind of person they should see. How do
you react to that sort of description of you from the Chinese?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: I think many people knows what I
am
thinking. The whole world knows I am not seeking independence,
therefore is many Tibetan disappointed, and also some of our supporters
- many Indians, many Europeans, many Americans are also disappointed
because I am not seeking independence. And also the Chinese officials
whom, you see, our delegations have met, they have also, you see,
acknowledged the Dalai Lama is not - for the future is concerned - the
Dalai Lama's side is not seeking independence. Now, they have
acknowledged. But the other side, the officials, also you see they're
using that same sort of accusation continuously. I think there must be
some reasons.
GEORGE NEGUS: Maybe they don't believe you.
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: I don't know. I don't know. I
think the
real thing is overall they themselves are, I think, facing some kind of
dilemma how to handle the problems of Tibet, so they choose more easier
way, that is simply suppress and accuse the Dalai Lama.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can you explain the difference between
independence and
autonomy, which is you say what you think should happen so that you can
actually save Tibetan culture? I mean, young people in Tibet are angry
and frustrated. You have acknowledged that. They don't think that your
position is correct. What is the difference between autonomy and a
compromise? Because the young people think that you are compromising
Tibet's position.
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: Firstly, Tibet case - materially,
backward
country. Spiritually, yes, now many people knows Tibetans in spiritual
field are very, very advanced but in material field is very, very
backward. Meantime, every Tibetan is want modernised Tibet. No single
Tibetan dreaming return of previous sort of backwardness, therefore as
far as economy development is concerned, Tibet remain within the
People's Republic of China, we will get greater benefit.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you think there is an absolute plus, a
definite plus..
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: I feel like that.
GEORGE NEGUS:.. by maintaining your contact, your association?M
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: Meantime, provided the Chinese
Government
respect our culture, our spirituality, our environment.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do they?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: No. So far no. What I am asking
the
Chinese Government there are certain rights which are mentioned in the
constitution and also according lenience for the minority policy. If
these things implement sincerely, on the spot, then that is a major
benefit. We remain People's Republic of China, meantime we will enjoy
the full autonomy, and also is it possible now China is now changing.
GEORGE NEGUS: But you say "If", if that happens.
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: That's right.. Not so far. Not
happen.
GEORGE NEGUS: It hasn't happened. Do you respect them? Do you
trust
them?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: I always, you see, sort of
summarise the
Chairman Mao's era, Deng Xiaoping's era, and Jiang Zemin's era and Hu
Jintao era - if you look at the government in these different eras, it
shows the people or leadership are more practical, so they acting
according to the new reality, so therefore there is some business to
trust them.
GEORGE NEGUS: You said recently ..
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: The present sort of situation is
actually
no benefit either to China or Tibet, particularly the President, Hu
Jintao, very much emphasis importance of harmony. Absolutely, I agree.
The policy based on harmony is very essential but, you see, the harmony
must come from within, from heart not just lip-service or from under
gun, therefore my approach, middle approach is the best way to achieve
genuine harmony on the basis of trust.
GEORGE NEGUS: You said in our country a few days ago when you
were
talking about how frustrated and angry the young people were and how
you understood their frustration, you said, "But if that situation
doesn't change within 15 years," if you were quoted correctly, "Tibet
could be swallowed up. Tibet is finished." Do you really believe that
Tibet is finished, it's swallowed up?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: There is real danger. Now, for
example,
the population of Lhasa - our capital - there's about 300,000 - 100,000
Tibetan, about 200,000 are Chinese. Whether intentionally or
unintentionally, some kind of cultural genocide is taking place because
now they have people in the younger generation in Lhasa, the
overwhelming Chinese population. The Tibetan language now, not much
useful. And their sort of daily life becoming more like Chinese.
GEORGE NEGUS: Which you don't want to have happen?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: Their mentality also, you see,
becoming
more like Chinese. So we noticed Tibetan youth which recently come from
Tibet and Tibetan youth who have grown up in India, we have noticed
differences. This is, I believe, some cases in, for example, in a
monastery, the Chinese put a lot of restrictions about Buddhist study,
and also the school, they study about Tibetan usually less emphasis,
less marks. Students who have the better sort of knowledge about the
Han language or Chinese language, they have usually, you see, higher
marks.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you think the only way to save the Tibetan
way of life
is this Middle Path? If that is the case, what you say to a young man
who we spoke to last year on our program who said, "Even if they cut
off my head I don't want to be ruled by the Chinese. I was a Tibetan
born in exile but I want to die in Tibet," that's how angry that young
man was. He said under no circumstances, he definitely didn't want to
live under Chinese rule. He didn't agree with your Middle Path. What do
you say to those young Tibetans?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: So now in our society it is
complete
freedom. Whatever they feel they can express. So a lot of criticism
also towards me also out there. I am welcoming that. OK. But now
question is - I usually telling these more radical sort of Tibetans, I
usually telling them, "Oh, yes, you are right. Whatever you want you
can express. But not just a sort of slogan. But you should it make
clear how to achieve your goal, then make public, then people
eventually vote to you." OK. That's the way. Just a slogan, just
criticism is not solution.
GEORGE NEGUS: If our leaders said you, "The real reason we
didn't want
to see you, we weren't sure whether we wanted to see you is because we
were afraid of upsetting the Chinese," in your wonderful Buddhist
fashion what would you say to them?
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: OK. OK. That's their business.
And
furthermore, my visit here and most sort of other visits are not
political, although the name of the Dalai Lama, I cannot make
separation.
GEORGE NEGUS: No, you can't.
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: In political field I'm already
becoming
semiretired, position like that. So for my part, no particular sort of
political agenda. If I have some political agenda, then I may insist I
want to see the Prime Minister because I have some political, some
point to discuss with him. Then if he will deny, then I feel sad. But
there is no political agenda. So it doesn't matter if he feels very
much inconvenience. OK. Let him more peaceful.
GEORGE NEGUS: There is absolutely no doubt that I have been
talking to
a Buddhist monk. Thank you very much.
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: Thank you. Thank you.
GEORGE NEGUS: It is wonderful to see you again. And enjoy the
rest of
your stay in our country.
HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA: Thank you.