YOSSI BEILIN (FORMER ISRAELI MINISTER) – 21st March 2010
Now to the Middle East where the spat between Israel and its
normally close ally the US has been described as "a crisis of historic
proportions". The current verbal punch-up was exemplified by Hillary
Clinton's 45-minute bawling out of the hawkish Israeli Prime Minister,
Benyamin Netanyahu. Predictably, this latest disagreement is centred on
the provocative building of Jewish settlements in what is largely
Palestinian-occupied East Jerusalem. It's left relations between the
Israelis and the Americans at their lowest point in more than 35 years.
Yossi Beilin is a former minister in the Israeli Government. He was one
of the architects of the ill-fated Oslo Peace Accord. Two years ago he
actually left government precisely over the settlements. So, how has
this veteran Israeli peace negotiator reacted to the drastic falling
out between the Israelis and the Americans?
YOSSI BEILIN, FORMER ISRAELI MINISTER: I believe that such a crisis can
easily be solved because the real crisis is not today's relationship
between Israel and the United States, but between the Palestinians and
the Israelis, and the big question for me is whether we can heal these
wounds and bridge the gaps which are there rather than if we're solving
the misunderstanding between us and the United States - because this
would be solved if not in this discussion, then in another meeting.
This is not the big problem for us.
GEORGE NEGUS: But that said, some people have suggested that
this is
such a serious rift between Israel and the US that it could derail any
chance whatsoever of a revived set of peace negotiations like people
were looking forward to so much. That this has put things off track.
YOSSI BEILIN: Well, I believe that what is happening now could have
happened and maybe should have happened a year ago when the Americans
asked Israel to do several things and when Israel said, "No, we're not
going to freeze the settlements, "neither in Jerusalem nor in the West
Bank," then there was a waste of time for a whole year of negotiations
between the United States and with Israel about the modalities of the
non-freeze. Now the Americans are saying "Hey, enough is enough, "let
you freeze the settlements," and we have to see whether Israel agrees
to it or not because if, for example, Netanyahu is saying to the
Americans today or tomorrow that he's ready for - imagine - three
months of total freeze, then the crisis is over in one minute.
GEORGE NEGUS: But this announcement of 1,600 new settlement
buildings,
as it were, at a time when the US Vice-President was in the country, is
about as provocative as Israel could have got. Was that just a foolish
tactic, a mistake, or a deliberate attempt to - if you like - jab the
Americans?
YOSSI BEILIN: The point here is the following one - there is a
difference between the attitude of the current Israeli rightist
government and the American administration. Israel decided not to stop
the settlements. This is a decision - a political decision. Now,
whether it happened during the visit of the Vice-President or the
President or the Secretary of State is really secondary because the
real gap is about the policies, not about the timing. I don't think
that somebody deliberately did it, but so what? The question is whether
this is the most important thing now for us to build new settlements or
whether the most important thing for us is to negotiate peace. I think
that Obama as a candidate said the most important thing about these
things - he said, "In order to be a friend of Israel, I don't have to
be a Likudnik." He is not a Likudnik. I think the views of the
administration of the Obama presidency itself is the view of people
like myself, which is the view of many Israelis. You see the polls
today in Israel, the public opinion polls, and you see that most of the
people are ready to go for peace, to freeze the settlements, and do not
think that what Netanyahu did is the wisest thing. I mean, Netanyahu is
losing a lot of support in the public opinion polls of this Friday.
GEORGE NEGUS: I would like to come back to you and the
settlements
themselves as I said, but I can't leave this American situation alone
completely. A 45-minute bawling out, if you like, by the American
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton of your Prime Minister - not
necessarily yours, but the Prime Minister of Israel at the moment - is
a pretty serious thing. I mean, the Americans are on the front foot.
Why are the Americans being so aggressive right now in their response?
YOSSI BEILIN: First of all, it is about time. They didn't do a real
thing for a year. I think the selection of Senator Mitchell as special
envoy was a big mistake. I think we wasted a lot of time. I think that
had Obama did something like that a year ago, it would have been much,
much more significant when he was stronger and not now when many in the
world and in Israel believe that he will not fight for his views. And
so the big question for me is, why now, why not before? And I'm not
worried about this crisis. This is not a real crisis between Israel and
the United States. Israel is important for the United States, the
United States is very, very important for Israel and this kind of a
crisis - although it is a serious one - can easily be solved. The
question is whether we are going to solve the real problem.
GEORGE NEGUS: I have heard it suggested that this could be an
attempt
by the Americans to, in fact, destabilise Binyamin Netanyahu - that a
Democrat government led by Barack Obama is hardly ever likely to find
accommodation with an Israeli government led by a Benjamin Netanyahu,
and this is part of not a conspiracy, but a preference, that they would
have not to have to deal with him and his kind of government - who they
don't think is committed to the peace process.
YOSSI BEILIN: It is unrealistic. I do not think that the Administration
in the United States is trying to replace Netanyahu with somebody else.
Netanyahu was democratically elected by the Israelis and the Americans
have to deal with Netanyahu. The point is that the Administration tries
to change the policy of Netanyahu - not himself - and I think at the
beginning they did it by somehow pushing him towards his declaration of
the 2-state solution, which was a significant one. And I think it is
more than logical and realistic that they will push policies that they
believe are the most important thing for the world. I mean, they have
to lead the world and they are in the Middle East - in Afghanistan, in
Iraq, in other places - and they know the connection between the
situation here, between us and the Palestinians and the situation in
the Arab countries and the importance that the Arab countries attribute
to the solution of the Israeli-Palestinian problem.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could you answer this for me? Could you make a
comment
about this anyway? You oppose the settlements, that is probably putting
it too simply, but basically, that is your position, and clearly, the
UN on any number of occasions now, since the Six Day War have declared
the settlements as illegal and, in fact, an impediment to any peace in
the Middle East. How do you feel then - when you hear men like
Netanyahu saying, "I will continue with settlements just as I have for
the past 42 years." Now, where does that leave Israel if on the one
hand, the rest of the world thinks - or the UN at least - the
settlements shouldn't be there, and he is saying he is going to
continue building them despite the Americans, despite the UN.
YOSSI BEILIN: The problem is the following one - although the world did
not recognise the existence of the settlements or the legitimacy of the
settlements, the world understood after more than 40 years that they
became a reality. As a result of it, the world is supporting ideas like
the Clinton parameters of December 2000 or the Geneva initiative of
myself and Yasser Abd Rabbo from 2003, which are leaving the settlement
blocks where they are and compensating the areas which Israel will
annex in the future by areas which are now under the Israeli
sovereignty. Now, what I am saying is that rather than going for such a
solution, which doesn't wipe out all the settlements, Netanyahu - who
believes in the importance of the settlements unlike myself - is not
progressing towards a solution which will legitimise part of the
settlements, and this is something which I admit I cannot understand.
He has now golden opportunity to find a solution with a Palestinian
leadership which is ready to negotiate - Abu Mazen, Salam Fayat, and
others - on a solution which will actually keep most of the settlers on
the Israeli side of the sovereignty. Why does he give up this
opportunity is beyond my understanding.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yossi Beilin, unfortunately we are out of time.
I would
like to talk to you for longer. It's good to talk to you again and
we'll stay in touch, but thank you very much for your time today.