PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD ( DIRECTOR, NORWEGIAN NOBEL INSTITUTE) – 18th October 2009
GEORGE NEGUS: Professor, to say the least, the awarding of the
Nobel Peace Prize to Barack Obama has caused one international fracas.
Did you expect - in fact, you must have expected the kind of reaction
that you've got, which is mixed, to say the least? In fact, you've
divided the world, some could say.
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD, DIRECTOR, NORWEGIAN NOBEL INSTITUTE: Well, we
were certainly prepared for a big surprise. We did expect some
criticism and we did expect some support, and the response has been
roughly what we had expected.
GEORGE NEGUS: I am looking at the front cover of 'Newsweek'
magazine as
we speak, saying, "He doesn't deserve the prize," with a picture of
Barack Obama on the cover. That is a very, very tough call. Did you
expect the reaction - the critics at least - to be that harsh? That he
doesn't deserve it? That he hasn't done enough to get this prestigious
international award?
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD: Our starting point is Alfred Nobel's will
and, Alfred Nobel, he is very much concerned about the preceding year,
and the basic question he asked is, "Who has done the most for peace in
the preceding year?" And, I think, the answer to that question is
fairly obvious - President Barack Obama is the person in the world who
has done the most to promote peace in the preceding year. He has
changed the international climate in many different ways and, according
to the three criteria in the will - fraternity between nations,
reduction of standing armies, and the holding of peace congresses - all
of these three criteria are very relevant in giving the prize to Barack
Obama. So, for the committee, this was not a particularly difficult
decision, but we certainly understand the surprise around the world.
GEORGE NEGUS: Let me voice some of the doubts that people have
had
about this award to him. It sounds to me like what you were just saying
makes a lot of sense to a lot of people, except what has he actually
achieved? He has expressed a lot of very, very admirable hopes for the
world, where war is concerned, where peace in the Middle East is
concerned, where the resolution of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan are
concerned, among other things. But, what has he actually achieved,
other than say what he would like to achieve?
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD: Well, some say that he has only expressed
words. I mean, first of all, words are important, words count, but he
has accomplished quite a few things. He has put multilateral
organisations at the heart of international diplomacy. He has taken up
the Middle East issue, and he is very concerned about dialogue and
negotiation. He has presented a zero vision to the world, and he is in
the middle of what we hope will be very fruitful negotiations with
Russia. He has changed the US policy on climate change. These things
have already been done but, of course, we want him to do more. We want
to give him continued support because, after all, the ideals of Barack
Obama are what we feel are very close to the ideals which the Norwegian
Nobel Committee has worked for 108 years, and here comes a man who
expresses these ideals in a very explicit form, and we think we should
give him whatever support we can. And he has himself made it absolutely
clear that, by himself, he can only achieve so much - he needs support
if his ideals and visions are to be brought into reality.
GEORGE NEGUS: But that's what he has expressed, hasn't he? He
has
actually expressed ideals, he stated what his aspirations for the world
are but, at this point, this is what I think most people are confused
about, and a bit perplexed about is, at this point, we can't say that
he has actually achieved any of those things. The Middle East situation
is as bad as it was. He is talking now about increasing his troops into
Afghanistan. Even though we probably all would share his aspirations,
what achievement can we actually point to? Otherwise, we have to think
that maybe you guys have changed the ground rules on the Nobel Peace
Prize.
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD: No, no, no. We have not changed the ground
rules and, as I tried to say, we feel that this is a prize that is very
close indeed to the will of Alfred Nobel. If you remember back a few
years, I am sure you will remember that the international climate was
quite different. The UN was not in the kind of position it is in today,
and negotiations on arms control and disarmament were going nowhere.
There was virtually no chance of effective measures as far as climate
change is concerned. Obama has taken up the Middle East issue right
away, not waiting to the very end of his presidency, as did Clinton and
Bush. He is negotiating with Iran, and we think this is a very
promising start indeed. I think, in a way, you over-rate previous Nobel
Peace Prize laureates. Many of them were also early in their careers. I
mean, they were symbols of magnificent things. Take the prize, for
instance - just to mention one example - to Albert Lutuli, in 1960.
This is a highlight in our history, that we gave the prize to an
anti-apartheid spokesman in South Africa at such an early stage. But,
the achievements, what were the achievements? So, this is often the
case that there must be a limited basis of achievement, however
limited, but we think it is quite legitimate to use the prize to
encourage those who express the ideals which the Norwegian Nobel
Committee stands for.
GEORGE NEGUS: So, we're actually encouraging people, or you
hope that
people throughout the world are encouraged by the fact that a man
expressing Obama's ideals has received the Nobel Peace Prize, as
distinct from somebody who has achieved any of those ideals. It is a
hope. Why is that not wishful thinking then?
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD: Well, I can only repeat what I have tried to
say several times. There is a basis of achievement already. There has
been a very significant change in international relations. I mean, just
to take one example - the American relationship with Russia is much
better than it was some years ago. They have already reached an
agreement on the principles for arms reduction and we are very hopeful
that very soon there will be an agreement between the United States and
Russia. These things have happened and they are happening, so I think
you underestimate the changes we have seen.
GEORGE NEGUS: One of the more obviously political comments
that I have
heard since he got the award was that are we looking here at a
situation where having someone in the White House - in fact, anyone
other than George Bush in the White House - is a good thing for the
world and that, therefore, this is an ideological judgment that you
have made, an ideological award that you have made, as distinct from a
purely humanitarian one?
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD: Well, the Norwegian Nobel Committee certainly
stands for certain ideas and principles - multilateral organisation,
dialogue, negotiations, reduction of armies and nuclear weapons, so we
support politicians and organisations that pursue these ideals, and we
do not support politicians and organisations that stand for ideals that
may be are sometimes in direct opposition to these ideals.
GEORGE NEGUS: In short, you are saying that there was never
any chance
that George Bush was ever going to get a Nobel Peace Prize - and I'm
not being entirely facetious!
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD: Well, we have given the Nobel Peace Prize to
many conservatives, even conservatives in America. Henry Kissinger. We
gave the peace prize many years ago to Theodore Roosevelt for
negotiating an end to the Russo-Japanese War, and we did give the peace
prize, as I'm sure you will remember, to Henry Kissinger, so this is
not a prize only for liberals. It is indeed possible for conservatives
to get the prize, but they have to do something on the international
stage, of course.
GEORGE NEGUS: Sorry to interrupt you, but we are running out
of time.
I'd like to ask you, finally, if Barack Obama has received the Nobel
Peace Prize for what his aspirations are, is it the case, therefore,
that when his aspirations come to reality - and we all hope that they
do - does he get the Nobel Peace Prize a second time?
PROFESSOR GEIR LUNDESTAD: Well, that hasn't happened so far but, of
course, the most difficult issue in the world is the relationship
between Israelis and Palestinians, and any person who is able to
resolve that relationship will automatically be considered for the
Nobel Peace Prize, whoever he may be.
GEORGE NEGUS: Professor, good to talk to you. Thank you very
much for
your time.