MADELEINE ALBRIGHT INTERVIEW - Wednesday 26th March, 2008
She may not be as immediately recognisable as Condoleezza
Rice, but many would argue that as US secretary of state, Madeleine
Albright was at least as, if not more, influential in world affairs.
These days, she's a university professor, sought-after on the speakers
circuit and a best-selling author. In the current madness of the
infuriatingly drawn-out Republican and Democratic primaries, her latest
effort comes with a politically tantalising title 'Memo to the
President-Elect'. Immediate response, of course, who will that be,
Madeleine? A few days ago, George Negus had a fascinating conversation
with the politically savvy Ms Albright from Washington DC.
GEORGE NEGUS: Secretary Albright, who are you talking to when you
actually want to send this memo to the president-elect? Hillary
Clinton, who we know you support, Barack Obama, who we know you agree
with a lot, or John McCain?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER US SECRETARY OF STATE: I am
definitely supporting Senator Clinton, but the book is for either
party, either gender.
GEORGE NEGUS: So I guess we could say you don't mind who wins
so long as it's a woman.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, that too.
GEORGE NEGUS: Given that you are backing Hillary Clinton, as
it were, do you really think that people like Obama and McCain are
going to take any notice of what you've got to say?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, I think that the book,
it is really to the voters of America and to those our friends abroad,
who need to know how the American system works, what are all the
decisions that the next president is going to have to make, and what
are the big issues. It is a little bit of a primer for what the issues
are. So I have to admit that the fact that it is written as a memo is
kind of a contrivance to make it possible for me to say, "You need to
do this and you need to do that."
GEORGE NEGUS: Could you help us, we are a little perplexed
here in Australia. We don't quite understand why at this point in time
Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are busily bashing each other to death
when we stupidly thought it was John McCain they ought to be bashing.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, what has happened is that our
primary process, which kind of has evolved over the years, has gotten
longer and longer.
GEORGE NEGUS: Right.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: I think people thought that the Democrats
would be the one who had a candidate very early on, but it has turned
out differently. But I'll tell you what I think is so exciting about
it, there are more and more people that are involved, that are
interested, that are following it. There are huge numbers of young
people that are now electrified by the contest, and so I think it's all
to the good for democracy.
GEORGE NEGUS: On the other hand, you could say the danger is
that they spend so much time telling the voters of America why the
other shouldn't be the president that John McCain could slip through
the middle?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, as I said, I am supporting Senator
Clinton, so I don't want to see a president John McCain, but I think
that this is actually a very good way for people to understand the
issues and I can assure you that the Democratic Party will ultimately
come together, because there is great commonality across the board on a
whole host of issues and we want to win.
GEORGE NEGUS: Call me naive, but is a dream team out of the
question, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, depending on who gets the
most numbers at the convention?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: I think that any number of things can
happen. As I say, it is hard to tell, but if you go back to 1960, John
Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson were battling each other and everybody
thought that they'd never get along and ultimately it was a ticket. But
there may be irreconcilable differences or they may figure out how to
work it out, but it is impossible to tell the moment.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yep. Can I quote from your book. You said, "I
write because I cannot contain my dismay at the direction our current
leaders have taken us. It is said that in his later years Mark Twain
wrote with a pen warmed up in hell. I have noticed steam coming from
the keyboard of my laptop." What is making you hot under the collar at
the moment? What are you angry about at the moment, in the world and in
America?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, I tell you, I loved being secretary
of state and had the opportunity to represent our country. I prided
myself in the fact that our reputation was not bad and I am very, very
troubled by what has happened. The war in Iraq, I believe, will go down
in history as the greatest disaster in American foreign policy. Our
reputation has been damaged
GEORGE NEGUS: That's a big call.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: It is a very big call, and I had a hard
time making it, but I and it means that I think it is worse than
Vietnam, not in terms of numbers of Americans who've died, or
Vietnamese, but in terms of its unintended consequences and the
disruption not only in Iraq but in the region, the rise of Iran as a
power and the loss of America's moral authority as a result of, just in
code, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. So it saddens me more, I guess, than
it makes me angry. It just is a very bad time, because America's
leadership, I think, is needed and wanted.
GEORGE NEGUS: Right, you are not exactly a dove when it comes
to using force in these situations. When do you think is the right time
for America to withdraw from Iraq and what do you think Obama and/or
Clinton should do or McCain?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: I think that the American public is
totally fed up with this war and I think there is a genuine question as
to whether the surge has been used properly. I take off my hat with
great admiration for our military, who have done what they are supposed
to do, but what has happened in Iraq is that there is not a military
solution to this. It is a political issue, and so there has to be much
more done to try to get the Iraqi Government to take responsibility for
its actions and develop some way of keeping the country together.
GEORGE NEGUS: When should this exit take place? Can we predict
it now
or is it just going to go on?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: I don't think we can. I don't think we
can, I think
that what Senator Clinton has said is that if the war is not over by
the time that she is president, if she wins, that, in fact, within 60
days she will begin to withdraw combat forces, one to two brigades a
month leaving a residual force there to deal with al-Qaeda and to
support the forces. And she has not put a date certain on the end of
it. I think Senator Obama has said something about 16 months. I think
that the message, though, is one that we have to leave. And we have to
leave in a way that does not leave total chaos there, but I think we do
have to leave.
GEORGE NEGUS: Where does that leave America, and the world for
that
matter, where the war on terror is concerned, because John McCain, the
other candidate and we know he's going to be a candidate has said that
he will follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of hell. That looks like a
pretty long wait.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: He has also said that we could stay in
Iraq for 100
years. I think there is a distinction not just semantic one, 'war on
terror', I think, is a mistaken concept because it makes warriors out
of murderers on the other side. Senator Clinton, Senator Obama,
everybody is going to keep trying to figure out how to fight the
terrorists and to kill those who are killing us, but not to lump
everybody that is opposed to us into a terrorist grouping.
GEORGE NEGUS: At the moment as we speak the world is up in
arms about
the way the Chinese are behaving in Tibet. As the emerging superpower
in the world, do you fear that emergence, where Chinese is concerned,
and what should we be doing about this gigantic human rights issue,
particularly with the Olympics coming up?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, I think on the human rights issue it
is
absolutely essential to make clear publicly that what is happening in
Tibet is unacceptable, and whenever I went to China or President
Clinton went to China we raised the issue of Tibet and that has to be
on the agenda. I think that it is, however, not a good idea to turn
China into an enemy. It is a very complicated issue with them.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think they should have got the Olympics,
given
that they did commit themselves to smarten up their act where human
rights are concerned and they don't appear to have done so? Was it a
wrong move from the IOC to ever give them the Olympics in the first
place?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that the judgment should
have been
made about what they were willing to do. It is not just a matter on
human rights but whether they can clean up the environment enough to
make it possible for competition. But they have the Olympics, and I
think that it is, frankly, difficult at this moment to decide to
boycott. I was in the Carter White House when we decided to boycott the
Olympics in Moscow, and ultimately what it did was punish the athletes.
What needs to happen here is that continued pressure has to be put on
the Chinese and support for the Dalai Lama and also talking and pushing
on a variety of human rights other issues in China, where people are
being arrested or the Internet is being censored in a variety of
different ways. There a lot of issues with China, but China also, I
think, needs to be brought into the international system.
GEORGE NEGUS: Our new Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, speaks
Mandarin,
which probably makes him the only world leader who does so, in the
Western world at least. Do you think he, therefore, could have an
important political/diplomatic role to play in all of this?/b>
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: I think so. I think that Australia, from
my own
experience, it can play a very large role in issues internationally,
but specifically in Asia. I don't know what Australia's views on Tibet
are. I presume that you all also think what is going on is
unacceptable, but I don't want to get involved in Australian domestic
politics, but I think than there needs to be an international signal
that this is not an acceptable way, especially since the Dalai Lama
when I met with him at a variety of times, and also he has said this
again is that he is not for independence, he is for autonomy for
Tibetans and for their capability of being able to carry out their
religious and cultural heritage.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yes. You are sounding very diplomatic and very
much the
secretary of state and you are obviously on a mission, but I think it
is a voice that people want to keep hearing. Thank you very much for
giving us your time.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Very nice to be with you. Thank you very
much.