PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI (ENVIRONMENTALIST AND NOBEL LAUREATE) – 14th June 2009
Last week on the program, Dateline interviewed one Lord Nicholas Stern,
the British economist whose report on global warming and climate change
pretty much set a benchmark for debate on the whole contentious issue.
Dateline copped a barrage of criticism from climate change sceptics,
deniers and the economically cautious. In fact, it was one of the
biggest and most vitriolic responses we've had to a Dateline interview.
That said, our interviewee tonight - Nobel Prize-winning Kenyan
environmentalist Professor Wangari Maathai - could well provoke a
similar response. That's what we're here for, quite frankly - to create
debate on world issues that matter. Earlier this week in Melbourne,
George Negus put the sceptical view of climate change to a woman known
as 'The Tree Lady' for her worldwide Plant a Billion Trees campaign.
GEORGE NEGUS: Professor, welcome, welcome to Australia.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI, ENVIRONMENTALIST AND NOBEL LAUREATE: Why,
thank you very much. It's great to be here.
GEORGE NEGUS: You talk about climate change as being the new
battleground. It looks like it is going to be a pretty tough battle
because the people who don't necessarily accept the climate change
arguments are out there.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Well, unfortunately, the issues of climate
change, unlike many other issues, are very subtle because the changes
we observe are very, very subtle. If we say the glaciers are melting in
the Himalayas, or in the Andes or on Mount Kenya and Kilimanjaro, it's
not as if the majority of people are going to be up there or walk up
there to the top of the mountain to verify.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yeah.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: So much of what we are putting our faith in
is what is being produced by the scientists, and I personally think
that the 2,000-plus scientists who are working with the UN panel,
intergovernmental panel, on climate change have been at it for decades
and their last report indicates that surely a lot of human activities,
especially in the use of fossil fuels, is indeed contributing to
climate change.
GEORGE NEGUS: You talk about the 2,000 scientists who've taken
us in
the direction we're now on, but how do you feel about the fact that
very recently 31,000 scientists in America actually put out a statement
as a result of their deliberations expressing serious doubts about
climate change and saying that America should actually withdraw from
the debate and not take any part in the Copenhagen forum that's coming
up?
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Well, I can tell you it is a matter of this
word against this word, and for many of us, I think what we will
eventually have to rely on is what we observe. Unfortunately, by the
time some of these observations are made, it may be too late.
GEORGE NEGUS: The guy who runs the Weather Channel, which is
now seen
throughout the world, John Coleman, argues that climate change is the
greatest scam in history. Now, that is pretty scathing scepticism,
isn't it?
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Well, it is, indeed, it is, indeed.
GEORGE NEGUS: To call it a scam is …..
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Well, I personally want to say that I want
to do the right things - I want to plant trees, I want to make sure
that the indigenous forests are protected because I know, whatever
happens, these are the forests that contain biodiversity, these are the
forests that help us retain water when it rains and keep our rivers
flowing, these are the forests that many future generations will need.
Now, nobody can deny that. So I want to protect, and if it so happens
that there is no climate change indeed, that the seas will not rise,
well and good. Nothing would have been lost.
GEORGE NEGUS: So, by doing what you're suggesting,
re-afforestation, it
doesn't matter in the long run whether climate change is correct or
not, we should be doing it anyway.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: We should be doing it anyway. We should be
stopping - in Africa, for example, we should be stopping the expansion
of the deserts, we should be making sure we do not have too much slash
and burn, because this, as we try to expand agricultural land, also
expands desertification, so all the good things we're saying that we
should do to take care of the environment, we should be doing because
it is important to have a balance anyway.
GEORGE NEGUS: Let me put this one to you - the Pew Research
Center has
said that when they tried to rank 20 major public concerns, climate
change was last in the list of 20.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: You know, people have a right, of course, to
put questions in the minds of people and to tell them that you should
not worry, but I, personally, want to say that the majority of people
are observing that there is climate change, that, if you go to the
islands in the Pacific and you see water literally coming from under
the ground and you see people being evacuated from the islands because
the islands are flooding, when you see what happened recently in
Bangladesh or in India, when you see those things and then people tell
you it has nothing to do with climate change, then you want to say,
"OK, what is the reason?"
GEORGE NEGUS: Why do you think it is, then, that there is this
re-emerging group on the whole question of climate change and global
warming so keen to pull down the argument that climate change is a
serious problem?
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Probably there are people who truly,
genuinely believe that it is not happening. Remember, even, if I may
take a very good example, Galileo, there were many people believe he
was crazy and there were some people who said, "Well, maybe the man is
right. Let us try to investigate and see..."
GEORGE NEGUS: We used to think the Earth was flat too.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: It turned out he was right.
GEORGE NEGUS: We used to think the Earth was flat too.
GEORGE NEGUS: So is that why you describe this as a
life-and-death
issue?
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Yes, for me and definitely for the people of
Africa, it is a matter of life and death.
GEORGE NEGUS: A lot of Australians hearing you talk probably
don't
realise we could call you 'The Tree Woman'. Explain your Billion Tree
Campaign.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: The planet needs trees. If there is indeed
that carbon dioxide out there in the atmosphere, the only species on
the planet that can actually trap it for us in a natural process of
photosynthesis are the trees.
GEORGE NEGUS: We've been busily knocking down at a great rate
for
decades.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Absolutely, absolutely wonderful.
GEORGE NEGUS: But it's exceeded your expectations, because you
were
after a billion trees and how many now?
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Let me tell you, it is unbelievable, because
we reached the billion trees within one year. We are now doing 7
billion by the end of the year in Copenhagen.
GEORGE NEGUS: By the end of 2009, 7 billion trees?
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Yes, in Copenhagen, we want to be able to
announce 7 billion and people do continue to participate, children do
plant, kids, governments, women's groups, anybody out there. I was in
Japan some time ago and I learnt that every one of us needs 10 trees to
take care of the carbon dioxide we breathe out.
GEORGE NEGUS: It's such a simple idea, a billion trees, and
now you're
talking about seven by the end of the year. What's your next target, I
guess?
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: It just goes to show that people really want
to do something and people really want to be involved and people want
to say, "Whatever I can do for the planet, even if it is only a small
thing like planting a tree and making sure that it survives..."
GEORGE NEGUS: You mentioned Copenhagen. People have got a lot
of hope
that something useful will come out of that. What do you say to
politicians who are very short-term thinkers, from being elected, to
facing the next election in most cases, what do you say to them when
they say, "This is going to cost too much money - is it really worth it
in the long run? It's going to cost jobs." We hear a lot of that in
this country. And part of the sceptical response or the economically
cautious response is, "We can't afford to fight climate change - we
have far more immediate problems to deal with."
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Well, look, the Australian Government has
just signed the Kyoto Protocol - better late than never.
GEORGE NEGUS: Right, better late than never. We were late.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: And the truth of the matter is, Australia,
therefore, becomes a leader in the fight against global warming and I
know when Australia goes to Copenhagen, she'll be joined by another
country that had not signed, and that is the United States of America,
and the message we're getting from there is that President Obama is
very much into what he's calling the green economy, an economy that
gets away from the high carbon energy source to alternative sources of
energy, so I think that more and more governments are agreeing that
something has to be done.
GEORGE NEGUS: We have an unusual situation - you mention
Barack Obama.
He's a Kenyan or of Kenyan descent. I think Africans might be a little
wishful that Barack Obama is going to solve their problems as well -
he's the saviour of Africa because he's a Kenyan, of Kenyan descent.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Well, this question has been put to me many,
many times and my response has always been that it is a great moment
for Africa, and if the leadership in Africa really want to benefit from
the American President, they have to get their act together. He is not
going to work with the people who do not practise good governance, who
do not respect human rights. He wants Africa to be better governed, and
if they do that, I'm sure he will be the first to extend his hand and
to assist, but, as I have said many times, President Obama is not going
to be Father Christmas.
GEORGE NEGUS: Or a miracle maker.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: Or a miracle maker. He can help and he is a
great friend and he can truly be our great ally, but he will only do
what we allow the environment we create in Africa to do.
GEORGE NEGUS: Enjoy the rest of your stay in Australia. It's
been
wonderful talking to you. Sorry about the weather.
PROFESSOR WANGARI MAATHAI: No problem.
GEORGE NEGUS: Wangari Maathai's latest book is called 'The
Challenge
for Africa - A New Vision.'