The Zuma Conspiracy ? - Allister Sparks and Thandi Modise Interviews - 19th April 2009
ALLISTER SPARKS INTERVIEW:
Most of us will probably never forget that
history-making moment back in 1994 when Nelson Mandela voted for the
first time in his life. During those long, dark years of apartheid,
Mandela's party, the African National Congress, was outlawed. But the
'Rainbow Nation' was born that day and its future looked rosy. Fast
forward 15 years to today and the once all-powerful ANC's vice-like
grip on the new South Africa could be loosening. Come Wednesday, that
troubled country will vote for a new president and the ANC is fielding
a highly controversial candidate, one Jacob Zuma, against whom
corruption charges were recently dropped. Allister Sparks is an iconic
South African journalist and commentator. He was a savage critic of the
old apartheid regime, but he certainly doesn't pull his punches when it
comes to the democratically elected ANC-led government, either.
GEORGE NEGUS: Allister, it's good to talk to you again. I read
recently
that this upcoming South African election was the most hyped election
since the walls of apartheid came tumbling down back in 1994. You've
been there the whole time watching the changes taking place in your
country. How would you describe the state of play?
ALLISTER SPARKS, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: Yes, I think it is the most
important. I think it's a landmark moment because the ANC, the African
National Congress, which has ruled the country ever since '94 has now
split. As it turns out, I think the piece of it that's broken it away
to form a new party called the Congress of the People isn't going to do
very well, but nonetheless it is a significant new moment and, of
course, we've had the huge bust-up between ex-president Thabo Mbeki and
the present leader of the ANC, Jacob Zuma. So it's been a very dramatic
run up.
GEORGE NEGUS: For those of us outside the country it has been,
for all
intents and purposes, a 1-party state for so long. Is it a question of
not whether the ANC win this election, but by how much or how much
less?
ALLISTER SPARKS: I think that's absolutely right, George. I think that
is the issue - how much will they win by? Last time they got 70%. This
time it is a question as to whether they will retain their two-thirds
majority, which of course empowers the ruling party to change the
constitution if it wishes. They haven't been disposed to do that until
now, but everyone is a little bit nervous about Jacob Zuma.
GEORGE NEGUS: Allister, we do need to talk about Jacob Zuma
because he
is the buzzword of South African politics at the moment. I notice that
someone wrote that it is a cult of either supporting or hating Jacob
Zuma. Mixed feelings, to say the least, about this man?
ALLISTER SPARKS: Yes, indeed. He's a very controversial figure. He has
just got off the hook from some very, very serious corruption charges.
He was acquitted some years back of a rape charge. So, you know,
there's a pretty tacky background to the man. Nonetheless he's a warm
and pleasant fellow. He has been through a hellish eight years with all
of this and nobody is quite sure what kind of president he's going to
be.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is he up to it? Is he in fact fit to be
president of
South Africa?
ALLISTER SPARKS: Well, that's a moot point - we'll find out. The thing
that worries me is the way he's got off the hook with this latest
corruption trial.
GEORGE NEGUS: You'd actually describe it that way - that Zuma
got off
the hook?
ALLISTER SPARKS: Yes, I'm calling him South Africa's O.J. Simpson -
he's off the hook but, as opinion polls show, the majority of South
Africans don't believe he's innocent.
GEORGE NEGUS: It doesn't really augur all that well for South
Africa
when you have a man who's going to take power who's also been accused
of abusing it.
ALLISTER SPARKS: There has clearly been manipulation of state
institutions. We have the National Intelligence Agency fighting against
the National Prosecuting Agency and because of all this political
involvement in the case it has had to be withdrawn on that
technicality. The charges remain, but the fact is how safe is the rule
of law going to be, how safe is our constitution going to be? And that
is why it is so important that the ANC should fall short of that
two-thirds majority.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is this 'welcome to the real world of South
African
politics' for the ANC?
ALLISTER SPARKS: Yes, the end of idealism and the beginning of
normality, I guess is one way to put it.
GEORGE NEGUS: Allister, what would be the best outcome for
South Africa
from the election? Is there a best- and a worst-case scenario, as you
see it?
ALLISTER SPARKS: The worst-case scenario would be the beginning of the
erosion of the rule of law and the kind of patronage and cronyism that
we've seen - the allocation of tenders and other perks going to buddies
in government, which has been the bane of African politics. If that
begins... Well, it began under President Mbeki. If that continues under
Jacob Zuma or accelerates, gets worse, that's the worst-case scenario.
The best-case scenario is that we begin to see a uniting of our
scattered, small opposition parties into a single and much more
effective force so that we will have a proper 2-party system that could
lead to regime change at the ballot box.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can we talk about post-Mandela South Africa?
What happens
to South Africa, to your country, when the great man goes?
ALLISTER SPARKS: You know, the great man has gone - he is not in the
public eye any more. He is a symbol, an icon. He is referred to - he
will continue to be referred to - after his departure but he is elderly
now, he is well into his 90s. He is not a participant in day-to-day
events at all. Zuma dragged him out very controversially and propped
him up. I'm not even sure the poor, old man was aware of how he was
being used.
GEORGE NEGUS: But he has backed Zuma, hasn't he?
ALLISTER SPARKS: Not really - he just appeared, held his hand and
wished him well, that was all. But it was a puppet show.
GEORGE NEGUS: On a personal note, Allister, your own feelings
for South
Africa - the good, the bad and the ugly bits of it?
ALLISTER SPARKS: The death of idealism has been disturbing, worrying,
but the country is solid, it's stable. And this is not going to become
another Zimbabwe - we don't have one man stuck there like Robert
Mugabe, who seems to stay on for ever. For heaven's sake, in our 15
years of democracy, we will have had four presidents in short time -
all from the same party, but the party's shown that it's prepared to
throw out its own if they displease them.
GEORGE NEGUS: Allister, it's wonderful to talk to you again
and thank
you very much.
ALLISTER SPARKS: Thank you very much, George.
THANDI MODISE INTERVIEW:
Thandi Modise is a veteran of the anti-apartheid movement. In fact, she
spent 10 years in jail for her trouble. Presently, she's the Deputy
Secretary-General of the ANC and George Negus spoke with her from
Johannesburg.
GEORGE NEGUS: Deputy Secretary-General Thandi Modise,
thank you for talking to us. Is it possible to say at the moment that
even though the ANC are expected to win the election, that the days of
the ANC dominating South African politics, post-apartheid, are over?
THANDI MODISE, ANC DEPUTY SECRETARY-GENERAL: I don't think it would be
correct to say that. The ANC has continued to enjoy the support of the
majority of South Africans because of the dents we are making in
poverty, the fight against crime, but importantly, our efforts to
continue the struggle to make sure that all South Africans, black and
white, feel they belong, enjoy the same respect and the same dignity in
the country of their birth.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it true that as a result of the party
splitting, which
it has done as a result of a nasty internal fight, that your vote will
not be as great as it has been in past elections?
THANDI MODISE: I think sometimes we get amazed by what the media and
what the so-called surveys tell us. What the split, the formation of
COPE, has done for the ANC is to actually help us resuscitate our
structures so there is much more enthusiasm, and much more members of
the public joining the ANC to be not just supporters, but to be members
of the ANC.
GEORGE NEGUS: How do you feel when people like Archbishop Tutu
as he
said recently that he's refusing to vote for the ANC, saying it had
betrayed Nelson Mandela's legacy?
THANDI MODISE: I think he is entitled to his opinion. I am disappointed
that a man who enjoyed all our respect refuses to allow another man to
enjoy the protection of the law, to enjoy the protection and love of
his own party. The fact that the Bishop has decided to go on a personal
crusade against Jacob Zuma is very regrettable. But he does not
determine politics of South Africa. He was just one of us who was
struggling and contributing towards the liberation of this country.
GEORGE NEGUS: I think you would have to agree that Jacob Zuma
is, to
say the least, a controversial character and when he becomes president
of South Africa, which looks almost as certain thing, he will be one of
the more controversial leaders about. People have what might be called
a love-hate relationship with the man.
THANDI MODISE: I think you must also agree with me that the controversy
surrounding Jacob Zuma are made. That the majority of South Africans
are not crazy, that we cannot believe - and there has been a trail of
events, a trail of evidence that point out that certainly there are
some individuals who have made it their business to discredit this man.
Should South Africans throw away this man because some people would
like to portray him as controversial, as incompetent, as fraudulent?
GEORGE NEGUS: Corrupt? Corrupt is another word that's used.
THANDI MODISE: Jacob Zuma like any other... yes, and corrupt. But has
that been proven anywhere? It has not. We believe that we struggled so
hard to come up with the constitution of South Africa that Jacobs Zuma,
like any other man or woman in the street, must be presumed innocent
until proven guilty. Why is it that nobody in the world begins to ask
fundamentally why we would want to crucify somebody in the media if it
is not for political interest?
GEORGE NEGUS: What about in the courts? Because people are
beginning to
wonder whether the rule of law in South Africa is under threat as a
result of the influence of people like Jacob Zuma?
THANDI MODISE: I don't think the South African rule of law is under any
threat under Jacob Zuma or under the ANC. In fact, if you look at the
events, Jacob Zuma has been victimised by the very, very systems that
he helped fight for.
GEORGE NEGUS: Are you suggesting that there has been a
conspiracy - a
conspiracy mounted against Jacob Zuma?
THANDI MODISE: I am suggesting - I am not only suggesting that there
has been a conspiracy, I am actually saying that South Africans know
exactly who has been behind this matter.
GEORGE NEGUS: Are they people who have supported Thabo Mbeki
in the
past and what is their intention?
THANDI MODISE: Whether they supported Thabo Mbeki in the past, or not,
what interests us as a nation is their personal interest in the
humiliation and the destruction of Jacob Zuma.
GEORGE NEGUS: Why did the party, Deputy Secretary-General, why
did the
party feel so obliged and so strongly that they should get rid of Thabo
Mbeki? Was it an old left-right battle?
THANDI MODISE: No, both men, in fact in their youth had been members of
the Communist Party. Both men had been involved in the armed struggle.
Both men had been a very close in working in the other structures of
pushing the struggles of South Africa.
GEORGE NEGUS: They were comrades in arms in fact?
THANDI MODISE: In fact, both men had been friends. Not just comrades,
but friends.
GEORGE NEGUS: What happened?
THANDI MODISE: What happened is that friendship cannot overweigh the
internal discipline, the obedience to what the ANC says. Nobody is
above the ANC - that's all we say.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it possible that South Africa has suffered as
a result
of the conflict between the two men?
THANDI MODISE: No, it is possible for you to look at the flipside. That
in fact Thabo set a very good example also in Africa that said people
vote for you, they give you a position - if they want to withdraw their
patronage or their support, that they can do so without you resorting
to bloodshed. I actually respect Comrade Thabo Mbeki for that.
GEORGE NEGUS: It's been a remarkable 15 years that we have
been
watching your country go from apartheid days to now democratic
politics. Would you say that you are at a watershed stage at the
moment?
THANDI MODISE: Perhaps the formation of COPE will add to vibrancy in
the South African politics. Perhaps it will wake us up out of our
complacency but perhaps it is just what they call in the township -
fire made out of newspapers - it bursts into flame, you feel the heat
for a second, it burns out. We don't know.
GEORGE NEGUS: Deputy Secretary, and thank you very much for
talking to
us. It's a marvellously important step in the progress that has been
made in your country in such a short time. Thank you very much of
giving us the opportunity to talk to you.
THANDI MODISE: Thank you, very much. Thank your country for having
given us so much support in the past.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yes, we do support you enormously - except in
sport.
Thandi Modise, not to be messed with. After seeing that, I'm sure
you'll agree. And a big week coming up for the Rainbow Nation. We'll
watch that election with interest.