PRIME MINISTER NOURI AL-MALIKI INTERVIEW - 22nd March 2009
Back in 2006 when he came to power, Nouri al-Maliki, the current Prime
Minister of Iraq, was very much a compromise candidate. An
internationally unknown Shia Muslim, al-Maliki had fled a Saddam death
sentence and spent eight years in self-exile in Iran. Since taking the
leadership of the war-ravaged nation by a parliamentary vote, rather
than a popular one, he's been a reluctant leader - self-confessed - who
would prefer someone else in what you'd have to agree is a totally
unenviable job. But he's hung on in there playing a role in the
reconstruction of his shattered country. He actually signed the papers
for Saddam's execution. Of late, he's set himself the mammoth task of
reunifying a country that was never really unified anyway. George Negus
met with him in Sydney for his only television interview during his
recent official visit to this country.
GEORGE NEGUS: Prime Minister, thank you very much for giving
us your
time. To us, looking at what has been going on in your country for the
last six years, it would appear that you have been in a living hell.
Over those six years, depending upon whose source it is, somewhere
between 91,000 and 600,000 Iraqi civilians have died. More than 4,000
American troops have died, billions of dollars have been spent and even
now today, six years down the track, with Saddam gone, there are
killings every day. Is that the price you had to pay to get rid of
Saddam Hussein or was there another way?
NOURI AL-MALIKI, IRAQ PRIME MINISTER (Translation): I don't want to say
that it was the only solution. There were other solutions but this is
what occurred. The fact is, that is what happened, and the price was
indeed high and expensive. But if the Iraqis compare what happened,
despite the ugliness of the killing and bloodshed, with what it was
like under Saddam Hussein, and his use of chemical weapons, burying
people alive, wars... Despite the ugliness, it is not as bad as it was
under that dictator.
GEORGE NEGUS: For those of us in the West, it would appear
that the
reason the United States and the Coalition of the Willing had all got
involved was because of the weapons of mass destruction. You signed the
papers for the execution of Saddam Hussein. Do you believe that there
were weapons of mass destruction to be found?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): He used the chemical weapons he
possessed in a direct manner. Against the Kurds, against the Shias in
the south, and he also used them in his was in Kuwait and Iran. The
regime's intentions were to possess prohibited weapons, biological and
chemical weapons. But the issue was bigger than the question of
weapons. Iraq started to pose a danger to world peace and security,
particularly in the region. That is what I believe was the primary
justification for ousting the regime in that manner.
GEORGE NEGUS: But was it necessary for those people to suffer?
So many
Iraqi families to suffer? To get rid of Saddam and whatever weapons he
did or didn't have.
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): They'd have been killed sooner or later
at the hands of Saddam Hussein if he had continued to rule. To get rid
of this regime and the danger it posed to the region, there has to be
sacrifices and losses. But what I can say is that when the coalition
forces brought down the regime they did not anticipate that a vacuum
would be created. The coalition forces did not have a plan for the
aftermath of the fall of the regime. That left a gap for al-Qaeda to
sneak in and sectarian strife began. What happened has happened - the
mistakes that happened - the successes. But we should look now at what
has been achieved. Democracy in Iraq, deposing a dictatorial regime,
elections, power-sharing, and the ending of discrimination between the
Iraqi citizens. When we look at these results, we can lessen the shock
of losses that have occurred in Iraq.
GEORGE NEGUS: George Bush described the situation very early
in the
conflict as "mission accomplished". That turned out to be wrong. Would
the right way of describing it now be "mission incomplete"? There is
still a long way to go for your government particularly when American
troops start withdrawing as Barack Obama have said that they will.
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): No, they have ended. There are no
operations going on. The Iraqi army and police are handling security
and there are no military operations. What President Bush has said is
true. The aim was to topple the regime, Saddam. He was toppled and the
operation was completed. But the pursuit of outlaws and al-Qaeda
continued.
GEORGE NEGUS: But would you imagine that it would go on for as
long as
it has? That it would drag on until now - as we're talking, it is still
continuing?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): Terrorism is all over the world, so we
shouldn't be surprised that it was in Iraq. You hear daily about
terrorist attacks even in European countries. Terrorist acts are
occurring in Asia and Africa. Combating terrorism requires an
international effort. If any of it is left in Iraq, they are robbers in
gangs chased by security agencies.
GEORGE NEGUS: Other leaders in your part of the world are
worried that
when the Americans start withdrawing, 12,000 troops in the next six
months and then most of the troops in the year after that - they are
worried that your country will not be in a fit state politically or
structurally and economically to handle that.
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): We are not worried about Iraq, neither
economically, as it is rich, nor politically, as peaceful and
democratic governance has been adopted. Nor are we worried about
security, especially if there is a responsible and gradual withdrawal
and American forces leave according to set schedules.
GEORGE NEGUS: There has been no suggestion that even the
sectarian
violence that occurs in your country - and I know you are very
committed to reconciling the different factions in your country - the
fear is that that sectarian violence and conflict will continue. Some
commentators even said that you could find yourself in a civil war
after the Americans go.
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): I disagree with you that the sectarian
war is going on now. The sectarian war has ended in Iraq.
GEORGE NEGUS: So how are the killings occurring on a daily
basis?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): Political gangs. The majority are
remnants of the old regime, Baathists, supported by some neighbouring
countries. The sectarian war is over.
GEORGE NEGUS: You have national elections coming up later this
year. Do
you intend running for Prime Minister? I asked that because if you are
quoted correctly - one international news agency said, quoted you,
Prime Minister, saying "I wish I could be done with it" - meaning the
job you are in now even before the end of this term - "I only agreed
because I thought it would serve the national interest and I will not
accept it again." Have you changed your mind?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): I still hope that someone other than me
will take over managing the process and serving Iraq. But I said that
if I had to, and people chose me for this task, then I would answer the
call of duty.
GEORGE NEGUS: I don't think anybody would blame you if you
didn't want
the job. It would have to be one of the most thankless jobs in the
world.
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): That's why I hope the one who takes over
from me will find things smoothed out, not like when I took over. But
thank God, we were able to achieve a lot by way of construction, but
Iraq remains in need of reconstruction from the bottom to the top.
GEORGE NEGUS: Prime Minister, I can't have you here without
asking you
about the infamous shoe thrower, because you were actually present. You
were almost hit by one of the shoes yourself. Does it surprise you to
hear, if the polls are correct, that 62% of Iraqis regard the man,
Muntazer al-Zeidi, is a national hero for what he did, attempt at least
to throw his shoes at George Bush?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): I don't think so. The Iraqis are a
generous people, they have their norms and they respect their guests.
Al-Zeidi was not respected by the Iraqi people for what he did. Because
even if he disagreed with President Bush, and it is natural to
disagree, such an act does not comply with the values and ethics of the
Iraqi people.
GEORGE NEGUS: So why do so many Iraqis and people outside of
Iraq
regard this man, who is now in prison for three years, as a hero?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): I don't think they respect him. But
ignorant people who are driven by emotions react emotionally to this
issue. What this man did in an official prime ministerial venue, in the
presence of the prime minister and a state visitor, Iraqi law, the
Iraqi constitution, even under the old regime, applies sentences from
15 years up to execution. That's if you insult a visiting head of
state. We left it to the law and did not interfere and he was sentenced
to three years.
GEORGE NEGUS: So, you don't agree with those figures that 62%
of Iraqis
don't agree with you?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): No, that is incorrect. Can I ask you
then? If you had a guest you disagreed with politically, would you
carry out such an act? In the presence of the Prime Minister of
Australia?
GEORGE NEGUS: It is a good question. I can't imagine it
happening here.
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): Well, then why should it happen in Iraq?
GEORGE NEGUS: But I guess, just to clear this up, you don't
believe
that that figure of 62% is correct?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): Definitely not.
GEORGE NEGUS: Prime Minister, finally, would you give Iraq
greater
chance of finding peace and stability and becoming secure under the US
regime of Barack Obama than you ever had under the Bush regime?
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): It is not about the difference between
Obama and Bush but about the difference in the situation in Iraq. So
when President Obama talks about withdrawing the forces, he means that
the situation has settled in Iraq and there's no need to have these
forces there for extended periods of time. From that perspective, the
situation in Iraq, due to the progress taking place, will surely head
in a better direction. Whether today, tomorrow or in a year's time, it
is improving.
GEORGE NEGUS: It would appear that Barack Obama's policy is to
talk
first and maybe shoot later. But George Bush's policy seemed to be to
shoot first and maybe not talk at all. Will that be better for Iraq?
The Obama approach?
NOURI AL-MALIKI ((Translation): Of course, everything is preceded by
talking thinking. Talking means thinking. And I believe no-one acts
without thinking first.
GEORGE NEGUS: Prime Minister, thank you very much for talking
to us and
I know that all Australians wish your country the very best after what
you have been through.
NOURI AL-MALIKI (Translation): I thank you very much. And the
Australian government and people.