TONY BLAIR, MIDDLE EAST ENVOY INTERVIEW (Part 2) - 22nd February 2009
GEORGE NEGUS: You've been totally forthright about the fact
that it's
religious values that drive you? Can you tell me this as a
'pseudo-theologian'.
TONY BLAIR, MIDDLE EAST ENVOY: There's a lot of those around.
GEORGE NEGUS: Your Faith Foundation, which is dedicated to
religious
tolerance, how do you negotiate with Muslims and Jews, both of whom do
not believe that Jesus was the Son of God?
TONY BLAIR: That is a really good question, but I think the thing about
religious inter-faith, which is the area that the foundation works in,
and tries to bring people of different faiths together, is that you can
still respect and understand their faith even if your faith is
different.
GEORGE NEGUS: But why have it if you think that everybody can
be right?
TONY BLAIR: Because I think that, you know, I speak as somebody who is
a Christian, but I don't disrespect...
GEORGE NEGUS: So it's OK that Muslims don't think Jesus is the
Son of
God, it is OK that Jews..?
TONY BLAIR: That's their belief. Obviously it's different from...
GEORGE NEGUS: Is that the core of your belief?
TONY BLAIR: Yeah, but I think it is possible for people even if they
disagree at a certain level to agree at another level. To take a
political analogy, in which two people are of different political
persuasions, but at a certain level and on certain issues they can
agree, and they can easily agree that they should tolerate each other
and respect each other, and that's what the inter-faith space is about.
And my view is very simple - that religion - it can be a progressive
force in the modern world or it can be reactionary.
GEORGE NEGUS: Because a lot of people believe it is part of
the problem
and not the solution.
TONY BLAIR: Absolutely. And that's the reason for the Foundation - to
say, hang on a minute, there was also fantastic work done by people
with religious faith and the best of religious faith is expressed in
social action, in compassion, in action for humanity, not in terrorism
or extremism or isolation.
GEORGE NEGUS: As a Christian, are God and Allah one and the
same?
TONY BLAIR: Well, Allah is simply the term for God that a Muslim uses.
Do we believe in the same God?
GEORGE NEGUS: Or are there two, I guess, is the silly question.
TONY BLAIR: That is why I think one of the interesting things, one of
the fascinations actually about being here in Jerusalem, where we are
now, is...
GEORGE NEGUS: The big three are here!
TONY BLAIR: You see the rich common heritage. We are all Abrahamic
religions.
GEORGE NEGUS: But the birthplace of those religions has almost
become a
battleground over those religions.
TONY BLAIR: Correct. Which is why one of the solutions actually to this
issue is inter-faith understanding. Here in Jerusalem there is no
political solution unless there is also a religious solution that
allows people of different faiths to worship at the holy site of
Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
GEORGE NEGUS: Well, as I say, good luck if you think you can
convince
people of that.
TONY BLAIR: You know the funny thing? I think most people accept that.
So I think if you went out and asked most Christians, Muslims or Jews,
should we all be able to worship our God in our own way at this centre
of religious heritage, most people would say yes. It is the minority
actually who are the extremists.
GEORGE NEGUS: It almost makes you feel like there is only a
filthy
rumour that the human race is intelligent. We think we've got the
answer but we keep arguing about the question. How long will you plug
away at this? Are you in there for the long haul? Because it could be a
long haul.
TONY BLAIR: Totally. I am in for the long haul. I find it both
compelling and fascinating, and in any event, absolutely critical to
the future. If this issue were resolved its consequence would go so
much wider than Israel and Palestine, and also in the religious
inter-faith context it would be the visible expression that people of
different faiths can live together.
GEORGE NEGUS: It seems to me that you are totally comfortable
with what
you're doing. Almost pleased to be out of that rat-race of Number 10
and Westminster.
TONY BLAIR: A bit of me feels like that from time to time. Look, I did
10 years, and it is a huge honour, it is a great privilege. But 10
years is a long time.
GEORGE NEGUS: How does it feel emotionally and psychologically
for you
to go from being the golden child of British politics to name your
poison the people threw at you.
TONY BLAIR: That is just politics. It happens. But underneath all of
that - and I always point out to people, I did actually win three
elections.
GEORGE NEGUS: Not bad for a failure.
TONY BLAIR: Yeah. It is just the way...
GEORGE NEGUS: Was Iraq the beginning of the end for Tony Blair?
TONY BLAIR: No, and I think we will make a judgment about Iraq in time.
GEORGE NEGUS: There are a lot of people believe that was where
it began
to unravel for you.
TONY BLAIR: Of course, and there are also a lot of people who disagree
very strongly. But here is the thing about being in these positions -
when you are in opposition, when you are running for office, you can
kind of choose your issues. You can choose where you take a stand and
where you don't have to, and you can also weave - and I did it quite
successfully as leader of opposition - a sort of panoply of creative
consensus, where different positions can be masked, and everyone...
GEORGE NEGUS: It's called politics.
TONY BLAIR: Yeah, exactly. But it is the politics of opposition. So
when September 11th happened for me, there was a decision - I either
stood with America or not. Now, I took the decision then. I've never
regretted it. I stood with America then, I believe in it, I believe in
having got rid of the Taliban and Saddam as well as Milosevic and the
gangsters in Sierra Leone, I believe in an interventionist foreign
policy. But when you take those decisions a lot of people disagree with
you, and they end up hating you for it.
GEORGE NEGUS: A lot of people did, you've had to put up with a
lot of
that.
TONY BLAIR: But in the end, what you come away with, and this is my
advice to any politician who takes the reins of office, if you take
those reins into your hand and expect to be loved for it, give up now,
mate, because that is not going to happen. But it is a privilege to do
it and your duty is to take the decisions that you think are right for
your country, and if people vote for you, they vote for you, if they
don't vote for you, that is their prerogative.
GEORGE NEGUS: I have to ask you this question. What ever
happened to
those weapons of mass destruction? Whatever happened to the 45-minute
attack that could have been launched?
TONY BLAIR: Well, people don't know what happened to the WMD, because
the one thing for sure...
GEORGE NEGUS: You still believe they exist?
TONY BLAIR: They certainly did exist, because they used them. There's
no doubt they had them.
GEORGE NEGUS: Against their own people.
TONY BLAIR: Against his own people, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: But the weapons of mass destruction that were
going to
take the entire region apart.
TONY BLAIR: Well, in the end, as we know, for whatever reason, he must
have got rid of them, but we don't know that. But incidentally, that's
not to say he wasn't a threat. I mean, history can get rewritten now
that Saddam was really quite a nice, avuncular figure and why would we
ever want to...
GEORGE NEGUS: Unfortunately, 16 people died today in Baghdad,
so it's
not over yet.
TONY BLAIR: No, it's not over yet, but who's killing them? The very
same terrorists we are fighting everywhere in this region. And the
answer is not to give in to them but to stand up to them.
GEORGE NEGUS: I have to ask you a domestic British question.
You
probably got out just in time...
TONY BLAIR: This'll be a quick answer actually.
GEORGE NEGUS: But you still are a politician, I know that. You
could
say that you got out at the right time. Would you like to be Gordon
Brown at the moment, facing the problems he's got with the recession
and the like.
TONY BLAIR: It's a huge challenge, this is the toughest - actually, I
think it's the toughest intellectual as well as political challenge - I
can remember in politics, which is a pretty big thing to say.
GEORGE NEGUS: Bigger than Iraq?
TONY BLAIR: Toughest intellectual. What I mean is, the thing that is
really tough about this economic crisis - and people should just
understand this about their leaders at this situation - most times, you
have a crisis, you call in the experts, you more or less understand
what's going on, you can choose this way or that way and so on.
GEORGE NEGUS: But with the financial crisis, we don't have a
clue
really.
TONY BLAIR: This will evolve and change the whole time. There is no
shame in my view of governments evolving their policy at the same time,
or saying, "Look, we've tried this, and that may not work, now we're
going to try that." This is really, really tough. And so when things
are really tough you want to engage with the issue, but I think Gordon
has done a really good job in the UK on it, but it is a tough, tough
challenge, it's big.
GEORGE NEGUS: Great talking to you, and all the best with your
job as
the envoy.
TONY BLAIR: I'll need that, thanks.