COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI - Sunday, 21st February 2010
TRANSCRIPT
GEORGE NEGUS: Sir, thank you very much for giving us
this interview.
You're a very busy man. Could you help me - what is the correct way for
me to address you? Should I call you Leader or Brother Leader? What is
the most appropriate title?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): As you
like, as you like. You
are free….
GEORGE NEGUS: When I told people that I was going to
be able to interview you, they were intrigued. They are fascinated by
yourself
because you appear to have changed recently from the sort of person
they were used to reading about and seeing on television, to a
different kind of Muammar Gaddafi. Why do we think that you have
changed?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): It is the
world that has
changed.
GEORGE NEGUS: But is there anything in particular
that prompted you to go from the person who was, at one point, regarded
as a dangerous
person?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course,
I was .. I am a leader of a revolution with global ideas. And I have
actively
contributed to liberation movements and colonial countries did not want
that of course. That is why they portrayed me in this image. My
principles have not changed.
GEORGE NEGUS: So when many people throughout the
Western world, in particular, regarded you as a sponsor of terrorism,
is that no longer
the case?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): The West
sees liberation movements as terrorist movements and that is why I am
accused of
supporting terrorism, because I support liberation movements.
GEORGE NEGUS: What about al-Qaeda and Osama bin
Laden because you have
spoken out very firmly against Osama bin Laden? In fact, you were the
first leader to call for his arrest.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): They are a
terrorist group
and we totally disagree with them.
GEORGE NEGUS: What’s the difference
between a terrorist group
and a liberation movement, in your eyes?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): A freedom
fighter has a land
that is occupied and he wants to liberate it, but a terrorist is
someone who wants to kill people. And sometimes he doesn’t
even have a program, a plan.
GEORGE NEGUS: So what about al-Qaeda?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): I think
the method these
people are using is … a storm in a teacup. They
don’t have any justification for existence.
GEORGE NEGUS: So was September 11 a storm in a
teacup?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Well of
course, it is one of
the terrorist acts.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you have any idea what should be
done to combat
terrorist groups like al-Qaeda?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): We should
respond to them
using the same arguments they use. They accuse America of violating the
Muslim world, dominating it, interfering in it’s affairs and
subjugating it. And that it supports the slaughter of Palestinians,
displacing them and stopping them from returning home. And support of
their argument increased after what happened in Iraq and…and
in Gaza.
GEORGE NEGUS: Can we go back to whether or not you
have changed because
the impression the world has is that you have softened, you are more
capable of living peacefully with the rest of the Western world for
instance.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): I was a
hardliner with regard
to colonialism which had occupied Africa and large parts of the world.
We were waging an armed struggle… and therefore one had to
be strong. But now no one asks for weapons but for economic aid, which
changes your position.
GEORGE NEGUS: Some of the reasons people think you
have softened your
position and you are no longer as dangerous as people used to say you
were is because you have said you have no nuclear program, no weapons
of mass destruction and that you believe that people like bin Laden are
not the right kind of people to represent Islam.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): As to the
nuclear program, it
underwent a serious review by us, we built it after the revolution and
the world has changed since.
GEORGE NEGUS: You did have a weapons of mass
destruction program?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course
there was. But we
reviewed it, many states were showing off then about going in that
direction.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you’re no longer
fashionable?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Now there
is no
justification.
GEORGE NEGUS: Some cynical commentators have said
that one of the
reasons you got rid of your weapons of mass destruction program is
because you feared the same fate as Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): No, we
started to deal with
abandoning this program and negotiating with superpowers before the
Iraq War.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could we talk about Lockerbie because
in the
Western
world if the word 'Lockerbie' is mentioned, the name Gaddafi is
mentioned. When you hear the word 'Lockerbie', what do you think?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): The truth
is nobody accepts
actions against civilian targets and downing civilian planes. I
don’t think a country can be responsible for or decide on
such an action.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you could look the world in the
face and say quite
honestly that you did not order the Lockerbie attack?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course.
No country would
do such a thing.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think that the man accused
actually was
responsible for that bombing of that plane that killed 270 people? He
was a Libyan intelligence officer.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): He is not
an intelligence
officer. He is a university professor. Had the appeal continued at the
European Court he would have been acquitted.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think he was guilty?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): I
don’t think so.
Even the International court of Justice said that it was a political
trial.
GEORGE NEGUS: So how do you feel that Libya and
yourself in particular
have been linked to that disaster?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Like I
said at the time, they
would blame everything on Libya as it was leading the liberation
movement. Even now, terrorist acts might be carried out by terrorists
who aren’t linked to bin Laden but they are immediately
attributed to him.
GEORGE NEGUS: If Lockerbie had nothing to do with
you and Libya, why
did you offer so much money in compensation to the families, the
victims, the families of the victims?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): This is a
peaceful settlement
to resolve the problems between us.
GEORGE NEGUS: But why did you do it, if Libya
wasn’t involved
and you weren't the person who ordered that bombing?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): We, at the
end, accepted the
judgement that was made, even though it was not a legal judgement but a
political one.
GEORGE NEGUS: So what do you say, as a man, as a
human being and as a
father and later you suffered, your own family suffered when the
retaliatory attacks occurred in Libya over that other bombing? What do
you say to the families of the people who think that you were
responsible?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): I have
expressed myself about
this numerous times. It is a tragedy – it was hideous. Who
would support such an act? It’s not possible. Only someone
who is mad or a terrorist – it is a real tragedy.
GEORGE NEGUS: Tell me about IsraTine - we talked
about your plan for
Israel and Palestine.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): it is just
my proposal to
join two halves of two words.
GEORGE NEGUS: The reality is that it's not going to
be as easy as you
make it sound - to get the Israelis and Palestinians to stop killing
each other the way they are.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): If they
wanted to end the
violence and war between them and if they wanted Jews and Palestinians
to live in peace… Jews and Palestinians… then
they should consider this solution. One democratic state, free from
weapons of mass destruction, and with the return of the Palestinian
refugees.
GEORGE NEGUS: And you seriously believe it would
work
- in your
lifetime?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): If God
guides them, then this
is the solution.
GEORGE NEGUS: I guess I’m wondering how
the Jews could see a
light from Allah. There is a religious problem too isn’t
there? A religious difficulty!
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): What is
the religious
difficulty?
GEORGE NEGUS: That the Jews probably don’t
believe in Allah.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): What would
hinder this
solution? This solution is not linked to religion – it is
linked to reality. Four million displaced Palestinians must return, and
the land will be for all of them, Palestinians and Israelis. What is
the difference between what was said about throwing Jews into the sea
and throwing Palestinians into the desert? It is the same thing.
GEORGE NEGUS: I guess what I’m saying is
if it was a simple
matter of getting these people to think more sensibly about it, why
hasn’t it happened before?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): The old
generation… the old guard are reactionaries and bigots, but
I think the new generation would accept this solution.
GEORGE NEGUS: So it’s up to the young
people to overcome the
stupidity of the old people? Accepting yourself, of course. Could you
tell me how you feel at the moment as we’re speaking, the
Americans and the coalition forces in Afghanistan have mounted a major
military offensive. What would you do about this? Do you see the
Taliban, for instance, as freedom fighters or terrorists?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): The
Taliban are not a threat
and should not have been fought – they could have left the
Taliban there and it would have been good.
GEORGE NEGUS: For the Taliban to be the government?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Yes,
because the Taliban are
not Al-Qaida – the Taliban are not bin Laden.
GEORGE NEGUS: So they're not terrorists? In
your
eyes, they're not
terrorists?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): No, no.
You know that the
followers of bin Laden and Al-Qaida are Arabs not Afghans. The Taliban
are Afghans – they want to rule their country in a religious
manner, they are free to do that – look at the Vatican
– same thing! What is the danger in that? They do not have
the capability to invade America or Europe. What linked the Taliban, or
what linked Afghanistan to Al- Qaida are the West and the Americans.
The relationship was created by the Americans and by Muslim countries
allied to America.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you still believe America is a
dangerous nation where
world peace is concerned and do you feel any better about America since
Obama has been elected as president?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course,
Obama without a
doubt is an exceptional case, but America is America. Obama’s
term is for a maximum of eight years.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think he should stay forever?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): I wish,
yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: Why do you think he’s an
exception?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): His
approach, his cultural
influence and his race – being a black American.
GEORGE NEGUS: So, you think his Kenyan descent is
important?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course,
he has even Arab
and Islamic roots, and thus his mentality is different to that of the
Yankees.
GEORGE NEGUS: A lot of Yankees and a lot of
Americans generally would
be very upset to be reminded that he has Islamic roots.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Why are
they concerned? You
see, they are racist.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could you work with the man?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could you imagine him coming to your
country?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Not
necessary, but it would
be good. I am not asking him to come but if it happens, it would be
good.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could I ask you about democracy
because you use the word
but to people in the West, Libya is not democratic. They see you as an
autocrat, almost an absolute monarch. I mean how can you convince
people in the West that your idea of democracy, which is very different
from theirs, is still democracy? No political parties, no opposition.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course
parties rule there
while there are people to rule, the solution is for them is to come
over and see Libya.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you have the final say? Was it you,
for instance, that
decided to get rid of the weapons of mass destruction?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course,
I have a moral
influence, I am the leader of the revolution and the revolution was the
making of the people.
GEORGE NEGUS: So what about the people who see you
as a dictator? Is
that a word that you will not tolerate?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Of course
not. Whoever says
that is ignorant and stupid.
GEORGE NEGUS: So, you think you know better than
anybody how the people
think, and what the people want?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): Not at
all. The people are
the authority and have the authority and what is being said is not
being said by the people. If someone says that, then he wants to rule
the people.
GEORGE NEGUS: Will there be a Gaddafi dynasty? You
have sons. Is it
automatic that one of your sons will succeed you? You have said when
you go, whether you stop being the leader or, unfortunately, you pass
on, that the people will all be president.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): The
authority is with the
people, in the end. Authority lies with the Libyan people who rule and
so all other options are out.
GEORGE NEGUS: How do you find out what the people
want?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): The people
say now they are
exercising authority. Other options might be proposed but they are
alternatives to the people’s authority. The people are free.
GEORGE NEGUS: So it wouldn’t really upset
you if they said
"We don’t like the Gaddafi system"?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): For 40
years I have not been
the ruler, the authority has been with the people. They take nothing
from me or add anything to me.
GEORGE NEGUS: Interestingly enough, I'm exactly the
same age as you,
and in 1969, when you had your bloodless coup, I started in journalism.
It is a strange coincidence. I also had a Volkswagen car like your
Beetle. But, we say in the West that people should have certain things
on their tombstone - certain words on their tombstone. What do you
think people will want to see on Muammar Gaddafi's tombstone. Gaddafi
an angel or Gaddafi a villain?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): No, I
heard a different
question.
INTERPRETER: No, I mean, sir ….. How do I
sat it, I mean, in
hundreds of years, what do you want written about you?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): He used
other words.
INTERPRETER: Sir, I don’t want to say them.
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): No, well,
I … what
is to be said about me… that I worked for others. I did not
do anything for myself.
INTERPRETER: That I worked for the others. To give
service for the
others, nothing for myself.
GEORGE NEGUS: "Gaddafi the servant"? Can I finish on
this note? One
last question. For a man who was regarded by many people in the West as
a fearsome person and a danger to peace and democracy, how do you
describe yourself to people who say that? Were we wrong about you?
COLONEL MUAMMAR AL-GADDAFI (Translation): I forgive
them, they were
ignorant
GEORGE NEGUS: Thank you, that's very generous. Thank
you very much.
Well, even a day later, it still feels like one of the strangest
interviews I've ever conducted - a much-mellowed Muammar Gaddafi in
from the cold. And, no matter how the guy sees himself, you'd
definitely never describe him as a glaring example of democracy. He
still hasn't reached that point yet. And, as for a post-Gaddafi Libya,
well, this country and, for that matter, the entire world, won't be the
same without him. He's a very curious man. And no sight whatsoever of
even one of those reportedly 40 female virgin bodyguards. Well, maybe
they're just a Libyan urban myth.
Reporter
GEORGE NEGUS